[SOLVED... KINDA] Adaptive limiter question

UPDATE: It was all a misinterpretation of the video, so never mind...

I was watching a video of a guy talking about the Adaptive Limiter and he said something that caught my attention, but I wanted to know if this is true or not.

He said that the Gain knob is not like the normal gain on a limiter but it’s more of a value that sets the maximum gain applied, depending on the levels at different times of the song. For example if a quieter part requires more gain it will apply it, never going above the number we set as our Gain, but if the loudest parts only need 1 or 2db of Gain, the plugin will be able to predict that (maybe that’s why it’s called “Adaptive”?)

Is this actually how it works?

Here’s the video and his explanation is around 3:45

You're overthinking it, it's just a limiter.

If your mix is, for example, a pad sound sustaining at about -10dBFS, and you have a kick drum peaking at -2dBFS, and you're limiting to 0dBFS, then when you ask the limiter to add +6dB of gain what happens?

The parts of the sound where there isn't a kick playing *can* rise by 6dB easily. However, the parts where the kick hits can only rise by 2dB before they hit the ceiling beyond which they can't go - in this way, the loud peaks are reduced, but the overall volume of the mix comes up. (The pads parts are coming up by 6dB, the peaks are coming up by 2dB before hitting the ceiling and getting no louder).

How that *sounds* will depend upon your mix, and your limiter settings, because the more gain you add, the more your are squashing/distorting your peaks and changing how they sound. The gain reduction meter shows you how much peak squashing is happening at any given moment.

But this is fundamentally how all limiters work, there's no magic going on.

You're overthinking it, it's just a limiter.

 

If your mix is, for example, a pad sound sustaining at about -10dBFS, and you have a kick drum peaking at -2dBFS, and you're limiting to 0dBFS, then when you ask the limiter to add +6dB of gain what happens?

 

The parts of the sound where there isn't a kick playing *can* rise by 6dB easily. However, the parts where the kick hits can only rise by 2dB before they hit the ceiling beyond which they can't go - in this way, the loud peaks are reduced, but the overall volume of the mix comes up. (The pads parts are coming up by 6dB, the peaks are coming up by 2dB before hitting the ceiling and getting no louder).

 

How that *sounds* will depend upon your mix, and your limiter settings, because the more gain you add, the more your are squashing/distorting your peaks and changing how they sound. The gain reduction meter shows you how much peak squashing is happening at any given moment.

 

But this is fundamentally how all limiters work, there's no magic going on.

I appreciate the explanation. I'm very familiar with how a limiter works, though That's not the goal of this thread.

This is not me "overthinking". This is me trying to confirm if what this guy is saying is true or not, about this particular plugin which (according to him) seemed to work different than the "average" limiter. That's why I was asking if this is true or not. If you watch the video, you will see this is his point of view, not mine

I have no idea what goes behind the scenes when it comes to plugins and maybe sometimes they indeed work different than other similar plugins.

A bit "off topic", but for example when I load a sine wave at 80Hz and I crank the Limiter, it doesn't add any distortion. When I do the same with the Adaptive Limiter, it does. So even though they are both limiters, they have different characteristics and how they process the sound. This could be another difference between them

This is me trying to confirm if what this guy is saying is true or not, about this particular plugin which (according to him) seemed to work different than the "average" limiter. That's why I was asking if this is true or not. If you watch the video, you will see this is his point of view, not mine

I did watch the video before replying, and my reply was based on that. I think you're overthinking reading into what he said.

There's a few points where his explanations are... a bit innacurate/questionable or skipping over some important things but I chose to read that as he was trying to simplify for a beginner-type audience, so gave him the benefit of the doubt. I see nothing about his explanation that in anyway isn't describing an ordinary limiter.

What was the phrase that made you think somehow Logic's AdLim was doing some special sauce?

Or is it just the word "Adaptive" in the title - which isn't clear what this means, even the manual doesn't mention it - perhaps some kind of automatic attack/release time adjustment based on the material, maybe? These features are not uncommon in Limiters.

A bit "off topic", but for example when I load a sine wave at 80Hz and I crank the Limiter, it doesn't add any distortion. When I do the same with the Adaptive Limiter, it does. So even though they are both limiters, they have different characteristics and how they process the sound. This could be another difference between them

Sure, all Limiters (and compressors etc) have design characteristics, how they limit, how they overshoot, what their attack and release times are, how hard they limit, what controls and control ranges are exposed to the user and so on - these are all part of the design of these things. Different algorithms, but all doing essentially the same thing, just the preferences of the designer.

But they all reduce the peaks, and gain up the signal with the now increased headroom - that's what a limiter does, that's what Logic's AdLim does.

(And yes, the regular limiter and AdLimiter are different plugins - the AdLim primarily has look ahead and true peak functionality for ISMs, so it's more sophisticated than the regular limiter, and is more intended for brick wall applications, whereas the regular Limiter is a bit more general purpose - to be honest, I seldom use either, I don't think the AdLim sounds very good anyway, or at least that was my opinion formed from using it in the past... And I just checked, and the other Limiter has those features too, I think it just uses a simpler algorithm with less latency as one key different between those plugins, but don't know offhand for sure.)

This is me trying to confirm if what this guy is saying is true or not, about this particular plugin which (according to him) seemed to work different than the "average" limiter. That's why I was asking if this is true or not. If you watch the video, you will see this is his point of view, not mine

 

I did watch the video before replying, and my reply was based on that. I think you're overthinking reading into what he said.

 

There's a few points where his explanations are... a bit innacurate/questionable or skipping over some important things but I chose to read that as he was trying to simplify for a beginner-type audience, so gave him the benefit of the doubt. I see nothing about his explanation that in anyway isn't describing an ordinary limiter.

 

What was the phrase that made you think somehow Logic's AdLim was doing some special sauce?

 

Or is it just the word "Adaptive" in the title - which isn't clear what this means, even the manual doesn't mention it - perhaps some kind of automatic attack/release time adjustment based on the material, maybe? These features are not uncommon in Limiters.

 

A bit "off topic", but for example when I load a sine wave at 80Hz and I crank the Limiter, it doesn't add any distortion. When I do the same with the Adaptive Limiter, it does. So even though they are both limiters, they have different characteristics and how they process the sound. This could be another difference between them

 

Sure, all Limiters (and compressors etc) have design characteristics, how they limit, how they overshoot, what their attack and release times are, how hard they limit, what controls and control ranges are exposed to the user and so on - these are all part of the design of these things. Different algorithms, but all doing essentially the same thing, just the preferences of the designer.

 

But they all reduce the peaks, and gain up the signal with the now increased headroom - that's what a limiter does, that's what Logic's AdLim does.

 

(And yes, the regular limiter and AdLimiter are different plugins - the AdLim primarily has look ahead and true peak functionality for ISMs, so it's more sophisticated than the regular limiter, and is more intended for brick wall applications, whereas the regular Limiter is a bit more general purpose - to be honest, I seldom use either, I don't think the AdLim sounds very good anyway, or at least that was my opinion formed from using it in the past... And I just checked, and the other Limiter has those features too, I think it just uses a simpler algorithm with less latency as one key different between those plugins, but don't know offhand for sure.)

I watched it again. I see what he's trying to say. I think one of the issue is that sometimes people try to explain something in a simple way, but end up using terms or the way they explain it, can make it prone to misinterpretation. When he says "up to X amount of decibels" and then the whole explanation after that, seemed a bit too "complex" for something that is actually pretty simple. Maybe if he used an image instead of trying to over-explain it, that confusion wouldn't exist.

Basically he's just saying that whatever headroom the song has is what we can add as gain. Above that, it limits the sounds. I think he wasn't very successful at his explanation, but that's my point of view

My confusion was not by the word "Adaptive". That was actually a "consequence" of what he said. I was like "oh, if this indeed does what he says, maybe that explains the word Adaptive", not the other way around.

As I mentioned, I'm very familiar with limiters, this was just one of those moments of "oh, maybe I didn't know this one could do this thing". That's all

As for the differences, the one I mentioned may be important as well, because if the Limiter doesn't add distortion (at least to a sine wave, not sure if this would apply to a more complex waveform), but the Adaptive Limiter does, then the final sound may end up sounding a bit different.

I gotta be honest: at the end of the day, whatever sounds good, is what matters. It all starts with a good song, good arrangement, good sources, good volume balance, etc. By the time a single instrument or a full mix gets to a limiter, my mixes already sound as final as they can be, sonically speaking. Both limiters sound good to me, they do their job. I'm not that picky Actually, except for when I "master" my songs, I haven't been using a limiter at all on individual instruments.

I watched a bit of the video starting at 3:45 but didn't catch where he says that the Gain in Logic's Adaptive LImiter does not work like the regular gain on a regular limiter? His description of the Gain parameter is the same that could be used for any (or most) limiters.

Check my reply below your post. I watched it again and tried to understand what he was trying to say. I think the way he explained it was not that clear (according to my standards, at least). I'm a very visual person and maybe an image (or something more visual) would help. At least it wouldn't confuse something I already know.

When someone speaks a lot to explain something simple, I lose focus. It's how my brain is wired

I agree that some of his descriptions weren't that useful, but as I said, I assumed it was mostly because he was trying to keep it accessible for beginners.

So basically this thread has become "Hey, this YouTube video wasn't that great"...

Like I said - over-thinking it!

I agree that some of his descriptions weren't that useful, but as I said, I assumed it was mostly because he was trying to keep it accessible for beginners.

 

So basically this thread has become "Hey, this YouTube video wasn't that great"...

 

Like I said - over-thinking it!

yes, even his explanation on True Peak, wasn't even accurate. And if he's trying to teach people who are beginners, he should either not mention it at all or explain it properly.

anyway... myth: busted!

Maybe there is some sort of analogy with how routers manage traffic?

When a router uses a non-adaptive routing algorithm it consults a static table in order to determine to which computer it should send a packet of data. This is in contrast to an adaptive routing algorithm, which bases its decisions on data which reflects current traffic conditions.

https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100237119