fuzzfilth Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 stellar superb, beautiful, extraordinary, badass, great Does that mix level determine how much dynamic range (in use of bits) you get from your bounce? Yes, although you could create a mix with -30dBFs which would be ridiculously quiet and still have more dynamic range than tape has. So don't worry about 'unused' bits, louder mixes don't have audibly better resolution. normalizing happens to the FILE Yes. An invisible temp file is written (quite possibly with no resolution loss in 32bit), then measured and scaled to 0dBFs, the result written into the actual 24bit file. No dynamic fader changes are involved whatsoever, this is a static level adjustment across the entire file. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisherking Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 normalizing happens to the FILE Yes. An invisible temp file is written (quite possibly with no resolution loss in 32bit), then measured and scaled to 0dBFs, the result written into the actual 24bit file. No dynamic fader changes are involved whatsoever, this is a static level adjustment across the entire file. i dunno, dude... i've never heard any static when normalizing a bounce... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzfilth Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 So what's the right word then ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisherking Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 So what's the right word then ? & what's the left word?? fuzzfilth, seriously; your answers on the forum, and your explanations are stellar... and i appreciate that (and the others here who are so good at logic). thanks for real Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 IF as I've added tracks, that "Output 1-2" starts getting deep in the red, and I simply turn it down, say from 0.0 to -3.0 ... or vice versa, turn it up to have a nice level that stays within a realistic range on the meter, am I degrading my final product in some way? No. You're just adjusting the gain, that doesn't degrade the quality of the audio signal any more than adjusting the gain anywhere else in the Mixer. Am I committing sonic murder of some sort with this behavior? If the majority of my individual tracks are not peaking, nor languishing at the bottom of the meter, can I just adjust that last level to make sure the final product is getting the full resolution of available bits? Yes. I also usually "normalize" when bouncing. Assuming that if I'm "Leaving Bits on Table," I'll reclaim that resolution with normalization. Normalize when bouncing is the same as adjusting the Stereo Out fader level, only instead of painstakingly waiting for your whole mix to play to determine that it peaks at, say, -3.7 dBFS when you'd want it to peak at 0 dBFS and then turning the Stereo Out fader to +3.7 dBFS to compensate, you use Normalize which automatically determines that the gain that should be applied is +3.7 dBFS. The workflow is different, but the result is the same. In any of these cases, you're not losing any resolution or quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnytucats Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 As to the OP's issue I've never experienced lower volume from a mix file than what I heard in Logic Pro. Looking at the "Bounce" dialog I'll mention that I've never done any projects using "surround" sound and it hasn't been mentioned in this thread so I don't know if that could somehow alter the loudness. I think the question should be, "What is the issue with my setup that I am experiencing this?" and you should include details of your setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ploki Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 Ok... one last question. Does that mix level determine how much dynamic range (in use of bits) you get from your bounce? If my output looks super low, am I only getting a portion of the bit depth? It would appear to my untrained eye, that the normalizing happens to the FILE, after the mix/bounce, not before. Though the "Overload Protection" option might undermine that theory, indicating that some sort of autopilot fader change is happening behind the scenes. Thanks for all the great education. Dan Rad Logic always bounces to 32bit FP first - "Overload protection" normalizes to 0 dB before truncating to 24bit file. Yes if you bounce to 24bit you're losing bit depth. However, that bit depth is merely noise floor. You're not losing "resolution" or "dynamics", merely your noise level, which is still waaay lower than anything else in your signal path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pu55yeater Posted May 6, 2022 Share Posted May 6, 2022 (edited) The OP is correct, thousands upon thousands of users share their grief with Logic's poor performance with bouncing., If you have used logic for years you must remember how well dithering and all worked before apple took over., one of the biggest bugs with Logic bounces is how it sometimes or randomly replaces files with the same name! So you mix, bounce and hear nothing you expected to of changed in your final..that my friends is bad! After using Logic for 30+ years I found the newest cubase to be pretty darn nice compared to the latest horrible performance Logic running slow on m1 Macs....try Cubase your self and see.., both logic and cubase where created by people from the same area in Germany., both even matched features at one time., Apple buying loci is like Adobe buying Logic., same cool stuff like latency fixer, loudness correction, volume same in every bouncing format, no funny Apple stuff Edited May 6, 2022 by pu55yeater Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzfilth Posted May 6, 2022 Share Posted May 6, 2022 1 hour ago, pu55yeater said: thousands upon thousands of users share their grief with Logic's poor performance with bouncing source ? Quote randomly replaces files with the same name Not here, in 29 years of using Logic. By the way, given that Logic exists since 1993, and you claim 30+ years of experience with it, I'm tempted to call your other claims to be hyperbole too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triplets Posted May 6, 2022 Share Posted May 6, 2022 1 hour ago, pu55yeater said: So you mix, bounce and hear nothing you expected to of changed in your final..that my friends is bad! Sounds like pilot error to me. Never happened to me, and I'm using Logic since version 6. Used Cubase before that, didn't like it. Works better on PC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pu55yeater Posted May 6, 2022 Share Posted May 6, 2022 14 minutes ago, fuzzfilth said: source ? Not here, in 29 years of using Logic. By the way, given that Logic exists since 1993, and you claim 30+ years of experience with it, I'm tempted to call your other claims to be hyperbole too. ahh shucks I was a few months of from the date of Logic's initial release...but for all we know you used logic only during their midi period and have not changed a single work flow since...and BTW do you realise Cubase was around before 1990 and people used to think Emagic was a steinberg rip off? Lets return to the subject here, Most professional audio apps including fruity loops, iMovie etc all sound identical when you bounce your tracks., ok we know Tim Crook abandoned professional apps but come on, this is a new low since Steve passed and the bankers stepped in.. but try to be straight (unlike Mr Crook) you accept logic having flaws like apple fan boys that refuse and blame users or parts of their Macs as if apple has no responsibility for any of this? Explain it to all these people, here are just a few: https://macprovideo.com/forums/audio/thread/12035-very-low-sound-when-exporting-sound-for-listening- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triplets Posted May 6, 2022 Share Posted May 6, 2022 4 minutes ago, pu55yeater said: ok we know Tim Crook abandoned professional apps but come on, this is a new low since Steve passed and the bankers stepped in.. but try to be straight (unlike Mr Crook) you accept logic having flaws like apple fan boys that refuse and blame users or parts of their Macs as if apple has no responsibility for any of this? Troll alert! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pu55yeater Posted May 6, 2022 Share Posted May 6, 2022 On 5/6/2022 at 6:47 PM, triplets said: Sounds like pilot error to me. Never happened to me, and I'm using Logic since version 6. Used Cubase before that, didn't like it. Works better on PC. Let me guess, this site is based in the west coast? near Tim Crook's thugs? Logic bouncing audio lower, not the same volume, too soft, then explain why you think its ok your mix does not sound the same after bouncing...the funniest argument I heard was when someone suggested to turn up the mp3's volume in iTunes.. We went from fan boys saying its ok apple erases threads that turned out to be recalls of huge batch orders linked to Greedy Tim Crook which pissed off Steve once but I never thought I see the day when Logic users accepted flaws like their mixes not sounding thee same while fruity loops and cakewalk caught up ages ago. google up the subject about bouncing in logic too low or not the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pu55yeater Posted May 6, 2022 Share Posted May 6, 2022 13 minutes ago, triplets said: Troll alert! im not the one trolling off the topic about using logic for 29 years., the topic is about a serious flaw where logic not only bounces the wrong levels but it randomly over writes an mp3 with the same name, try it. Incase you have never checked Troll means: a person who intentionally antagonizes others online by posting inflammatory, irrelevant, or offensive comments or other disruptive content Internet trolls In the late 1980s, Internet users adopted the word "troll" to denote someone who intentionally disrupts online communities.— Mattathias Schwartz. So back to the subject please, I mix very loud, Rick Ruben can tell you cause ive been in rooms with these guys and we turn the gain up on logic, but bouncing and hearing Muzak versions Is not a bug, its a virus! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted May 6, 2022 Share Posted May 6, 2022 On 5/6/2022 at 7:03 PM, pu55yeater said: Let me guess, this site is based in the west coast? near Tim Crook's thugs? Not exactly. I am the owner of this site. I live in France. To everyone involved here: It's of paramount importance to me to keep all discussions on this forum friendly. Let's discuss opinions, facts, but no personal attacks.Thank you. I've been using Logic since 1998 and ever since, what you hear when you press play is what you get when you bounce. If that's not what you're experiencing, then we are here to help you troubleshoot that, because that's not the behavior you should be experiencing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pu55yeater Posted May 6, 2022 Share Posted May 6, 2022 14 minutes ago, David Nahmani said: Not exactly. I am the owner of this site. I live in France. To everyone involved here: It's of paramount importance to me to keep all discussions on this forum friendly. Let's discuss opinions, facts, but no personal attacks.Thank you. I've been using Logic since 1998 and ever since, what you hear when you press play is what you get when you bounce. If that's not what you're experiencing, then we are here help you troubleshoot that, because that's not the behavior you should be experiencing. ive come to this site on and off one the years, great info., I had no idea you are in France, I remember reading something about guitar center LA, where in france are you now? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzfilth Posted May 6, 2022 Share Posted May 6, 2022 Must...not...feed...the...troll I'm outa here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pu55yeater Posted May 6, 2022 Share Posted May 6, 2022 10 minutes ago, fuzzfilth said: Must...not...feed...the...troll I'm outa here. I agreee, no treats for you kids lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted May 6, 2022 Share Posted May 6, 2022 On 5/6/2022 at 7:42 PM, pu55yeater said: where in france are you now? I've lived in Los Angeles for close to 20 years. I am currently based in the middle of the Alps, not far from beautiful Grenoble - 1968 Winter Olympics! We have a castle and all that. Here's a picture of the village where I live: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pu55yeater Posted May 7, 2022 Share Posted May 7, 2022 (edited) On 5/6/2022 at 8:31 PM, David Nahmani said: I've lived in Los Angeles for close to 20 years. I am currently based in the middle of the Alps, not far from beautiful Grenoble.1968 Winter Olympics! We have a castle and all that. Here's a picture of the village where I live: What a mensch, most of France looks like this, I know a few communities in Grenoble, possibly your family, beautiful family name btw, kudos to this site. Edited May 7, 2022 by pu55yeater 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlas007 Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 (edited) On 5/6/2022 at 2:31 PM, David Nahmani said: I've lived in Los Angeles for close to 20 years. I am currently based in the middle of the Alps, not far from beautiful Grenoble.1968 Winter Olympics! We have a castle and all that. Here's a picture of the village where I live: You live in a castle!?! Oh goodness! Do I miss my font sizes!!! I didn't know that holding a board could be so lucrative! BTW, who's mowing the lawn? Edited May 8, 2022 by Atlas007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzfilth Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Atlas007 said: You live in a castle! Well, not exactly. Actually it's a hotel and he has agreed to house-sit it during the winter time. No one is there except him, his wife and his kid. He wants to work on a book or something. But he's behaving a little strange as of late. Edited May 8, 2022 by fuzzfilth 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
des99 Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 (edited) On 5/6/2022 at 5:48 PM, pu55yeater said: but for all we know you used logic only during their midi period and have not changed a single work flow since...and BTW do you realise Cubase was around before 1990 and people used to think Emagic was a steinberg rip off? I've used Logic since 1.x, and it's predecessor for some years before that, Creator/Notator (and before that, hardware sequencers etc). Creator was around *before* Cubase, when Steinberg's sequencer was Pro24, and very basic (though really the first of the "proper" Atari ST sequencers). And yes, Steinberg took some things from Creator/Notator for Cubase, and C-Lab/emagic took some things from Cubase for Logic. That's how competitive development usually works - another company comes up with a good idea, users start demanding it for the product they are using, company reacts by doing their take on it... There was a lot of sequencer evolution in those days as companies developed, defined and refined the form of what a software sequencer (and ultimately to today's DAWs) should be. I've also not had any of the issues described above either, btw... Edited May 8, 2022 by des99 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlas007 Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, fuzzfilth said: But he's behaving a little strange as of late. You noticed that too... ...and he has this strange smirk since he started shining this new board Edited May 8, 2022 by Atlas007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzfilth Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 more like this: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amusong Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 Fuzzfiltth.........Back in 2021, before this thread got weird at the end, you mentioned a "null test". Can you please explain what that means. I am just about to make another post on this topic and did and number of tests before doing that, but I did not know what a null test was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzfilth Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 (edited) A null test is a means to determine if two audio streams are identical or not. In its simplest form, you already have two streams (busses, or tracks playing audio files). If you play both at the same time, you get double the volume or +6dB of gain. But if you invert the polarity of one stream (so the speaker membrane goes backwards where it used to go forwards) and this is combined with the other, unchanged stream, it will cancel itself partially or totally, resulting in silence if and only if both streams are identical. In practical terms, you use an empty project, put both audio files on two audio tracks, put a Gain plugin into one where you activate the polarity switch and hit Play. If you hear something, anything, the two files are not identical. If you're unsure, you bounce the result to a file and then try to normalize that in the Audio File Editor. If the message "There is nothing to Normalize" pops up, then the source files are really identical. That's the technical side of it. A null test also is a strategic weapon to shut up 99% of folks who claim they 'hear a difference' when everyone else does not, as they invariably fail to provide a result that proves their claim... Edited May 8, 2022 by fuzzfilth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amusong Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 Ah....that is very clever. Thanks for that great explanation. I am just typing my other post on loudness now after doing a couple of other different tests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pu55yeater Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 10 hours ago, fuzzfilth said: A null test is a means to determine if two audio streams are identical or not. 10 hours ago, amusong said: Ah....that is very clever. Thanks for that great explanation. I am just typing my other post on loudness now after doing a couple of other different tests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amusong Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 Thanks pu55yeater. I have observed the same phenomenon with the phase cancellation that occurs on either side of my ribbon mic when using as a side mic in M/S recording. I can see a place for the null test too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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