A technical support community for Apple Logic Pro users.

 
User avatar
fisherking
Posts: 6178
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 5:51 am
Location: new york
Contact:

Re: Why does logic bounce mixes that sound lower then real time?

Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:29 pm

re 1: personally, i have never heard any differences with 'static' plugins (like compression) in a mix, bounced live or offline. the only thing i've ever seen different is with some complex synths (cypher 2 comes to mind), and how an evolving sound plays out. plus, i've had maybe 2 projects in 16 years that had some sustain issues... that bounced correctly only when done realtime.

as for 2, someone can explain this better, but 0 is...0, neither a boost nor a reduction in level, so, theoretically, has no effect on what passes thru it.
LP10.6.2 • os11.5b • 2019 3.2 i7 imac • one plugin short of perfection
http://upstatebrooklyn.com
 
User avatar
fuzzfilth
Posts: 4749
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:31 am
Location: Germany

Re: Why does logic bounce mixes that sound lower then real time?

Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:54 am

DanRad wrote:
"unity gain" (+0) on the output bus being a factor in bounce quality.

I mentioned the Master Fader, which is different from the Stereo Out. It's the devil's work and here's why:

MF affects all outputs, and invisibly, so if MF is set to -3, your drummer's headphones will be 3dB quieter, despite that output's fader looking untouched. Add to this that the conveniently placed, easy to reach, *unnamed*, horizontal fader top right in the Main window is controlling that very MF and you're set up for some frustrating troubleshooting. There are countless posts on this and other forums which go "My Bounce levels are different! Logic sux!". And as a substitute for the IT-Guys' proverbial "Is it plugged in ? Have you tried turning it off and on again?" the proper reply is "Disable Normalize. Set the Master Fader back to unity." and lo and behold, everything is fine again.

MF does not affect Bounce quality, it changes its level, and there is no known use case where you actually want that to happen invisibly.
Christian Obermaier
Contact me for private Logic Consulting, Training, Troubleshooting via Skype, Zoom or Teamviewer

1 x MacPro 6core 2010 24Gb RAM
2 x MacBookPro i7 2012 16Gb RAM
OSX.14.6. Mojave, Logic X.4.4 & 5.1
 
User avatar
Ploki
Posts: 4510
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:59 am
Location: Slovenia
Contact:

Re: Why does logic bounce mixes that sound lower then real time?

Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:55 am

DanRad wrote:
This post raised two questions that I'd be curious to have answered by those more knowledgable than me. (7.6 billion or more)
1. Would things like compression or other dynamic processing react differently in a real time vs. offline bounce. (I would hope not, but that seems possible)
2. Someone mentioned "unity gain" (+0) on the output bus being a factor in bounce quality. Is that an accepted fact? If so, why.

Thanks, still learning after all these years (25 with Logic_45 in pro studios)

1. no, unless processors have "offline oversampling" (so they oversample i.e. @2x realtime and @4x,8x at offline).
In that case, time constants are affected, and for distortion/saturation effects, they'll have less aliasing.
That however is optional in most properly coded plugins, and you can generally disable it, or set it to the same oversampling regardless of whether it's realtime or offline.

2. no.
Logic has a 64bit mixer.
If you bounce at 24bits, the only thing affected is noise floor. If you bounce so your outputs peak at 0dB, you'll have digital noise floor at ~ -144dB FS.
If you bounce so your outputs peak at -12dB FS, and you bring it up to 0dB afterwards (during mastering), your digital noise floor will be at ~ -136dB FS.
Still much lower than anything else you recorded or any analog gear or ADC/DAC (best converters are ~ -120dB FS)

If you bounce at 32bit FP, nothing will be different whatsoever, even if your master output goes over the red. (in Logic 10.5+, it can go WAAY over 0).
If you bounce at 24bit with master output going over 0dB FS, and set normalize option to "prevent overloads", you won't have any issues with 24bit exports either.

Hope that clears it up.
<desktop pending> | 13" M1 Pro | Big Sur 11.1 | Logic 10.6.1
RME FireFace 800 / UFX+ | ROLI Seaboard RISE 25 | ROLI Blocks | nOb Control | StreamDeck
 
zip
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:52 am

Re: Why does logic bounce mixes that sound lower then real time?

Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:13 am

fuzzfilth wrote:
DanRad wrote:
"unity gain" (+0) on the output bus being a factor in bounce quality.

I mentioned the Master Fader, which is different from the Stereo Out. It's the devil's work and here's why:

MF affects all outputs, and invisibly, so if MF is set to -3, your drummer's headphones will be 3dB quieter, despite that output's fader looking untouched. Add to this that the conveniently placed, easy to reach, *unnamed*, horizontal fader top right in the Main window is controlling that very MF and you're set up for some frustrating troubleshooting. There are countless posts on this and other forums which go "My Bounce levels are different! Logic sux!". And as a substitute for the IT-Guys' proverbial "Is it plugged in ? Have you tried turning it off and on again?" the proper reply is "Disable Normalize. Set the Master Fader back to unity." and lo and behold, everything is fine again.

MF does not affect Bounce quality, it changes its level, and there is no known use case where you actually want that to happen invisibly.


Yes, I regularly fall into this trap, MF not at 0. I never use/touch this fader myself, but people who send me projects do...
 
User avatar
David Nahmani
Site Admin
Posts: 84668
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:16 am
Contact:

Re: Why does logic bounce mixes that sound lower then real time?

Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:18 am

I've been a victim of this as well. It's really become a habit for me to constantly double-check that the master fader and the Stereo Out fader are always, always set to zero.

And I've been lobbying Apple to remove the Master fader from the Mixer altogether when working only with a single stereo output (Stereo Out = Output 1-2) which I would suppose is the case for 98% of Logic users. For years. And remove the silly amateurish volume slider in the Control bar, which is responsible for so many users scratching their head in disbelief come bouncing time. But I suppose they (Apple) don't want to hear it. :(
David Nahmani
• My Logic Pro X 10.5 book (Apple Pro Training Series)
Contact me for Private Lessons
Logic Pro X 10.6.1
MacBook Air 1.3 GHz i5 — MacOS X 11.0.1 — 4 GB RAM
iMac 3.2 GHz Quad Core i5 — MacOS X 10.15.4 — 8 GB RAM
 
User avatar
fisherking
Posts: 6178
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 5:51 am
Location: new york
Contact:

Re: Why does logic bounce mixes that sound lower then real time?

Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:12 am

David Nahmani wrote:
I've been a victim of this as well. It's really become a habit for me to constantly double-check that the master fader and the Stereo Out fader are always, always set to zero.

And I've been lobbying Apple to remove the Master fader from the Mixer altogether when working only with a single stereo output (Stereo Out = Output 1-2) which I would suppose is the case for 98% of Logic users. For years. And remove the silly amateurish volume slider in the Control bar, which is responsible for so many users scratching their head in disbelief come bouncing time. But I suppose they (Apple) don't want to hear it. :(


i've always hidden the volume slider in the menu, it is ridiculous. and i never go near the master fader, it's always at 0.

that slider seems very 'garageband 2004'... and yeah, it should be removed.
LP10.6.2 • os11.5b • 2019 3.2 i7 imac • one plugin short of perfection
http://upstatebrooklyn.com
 
DanRad
Posts: 1159
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:17 am
Location: Los Angeles, cA
Contact:

Re: Why does logic bounce mixes that sound lower then real time?

Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:45 am

Thank you all for your input. AND...I guess I need a more simple answer to the master fader/bounce question.
I'm assuming (possibly incorrectly) that "Output 1-2" which contains the "Bnc" button, is is the summed "source" of my bounced final product.
Screen Shot 2021-04-21 at 8.23.04 AM.png
Screen Shot 2021-04-21 at 8.23.04 AM.png (13.56 KiB) Viewed 637 times

IF as I've added tracks, that "Output 1-2" starts getting deep in the red, and I simply turn it down, say from 0.0 to -3.0 ... or vice versa, turn it up to have a nice level that stays within a realistic range on the meter, am I degrading my final product in some way? Yes, an alternative would be to lower or raise all levels in order to leave that fader at 0.0 but keep the output from peaking or being too low.
But many people have told me that my best quality is my laziness. So instead of addressing EVERY part of the mix to lower the overall level and keep the the signal in a respectable window, I exercise that wonderful laziness and just lower that fader. Am I committing sonic murder of some sort with this behavior? If the majority of my individual tracks are not peaking, nor languishing at the bottom of the meter, can I just adjust that last level to make sure the final product is getting the full resolution of available bits? I also usually "normalize" when bouncing. Assuming that if I'm "Leaving Bits on Table," I'll reclaim that resolution with normalization.

I throw myself before the mercy of the court.

Dan Rad
Mac Pro 3.33 6 Core
10.13.6
Logic 10.3.3
Taurus
 
User avatar
fuzzfilth
Posts: 4749
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:31 am
Location: Germany

Re: Why does logic bounce mixes that sound lower then real time?

Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:48 am

Lowering the Output fader to avoid clipping of an otherwise stellar mix is perfectly fine.
Christian Obermaier
Contact me for private Logic Consulting, Training, Troubleshooting via Skype, Zoom or Teamviewer

1 x MacPro 6core 2010 24Gb RAM
2 x MacBookPro i7 2012 16Gb RAM
OSX.14.6. Mojave, Logic X.4.4 & 5.1
 
DanRad
Posts: 1159
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:17 am
Location: Los Angeles, cA
Contact:

Re: Why does logic bounce mixes that sound lower then real time?

Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:58 am

you lost me at "Stellar Mix." :)
Mac Pro 3.33 6 Core
10.13.6
Logic 10.3.3
Taurus
 
DanRad
Posts: 1159
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:17 am
Location: Los Angeles, cA
Contact:

Re: Why does logic bounce mixes that sound lower then real time?

Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:02 am

Ok... one last question. Does that mix level determine how much dynamic range (in use of bits) you get from your bounce? If my output looks super low, am I only getting a portion of the bit depth? It would appear to my untrained eye, that the normalizing happens to the FILE, after the mix/bounce, not before. Though the "Overload Protection" option might undermine that theory, indicating that some sort of autopilot fader change is happening behind the scenes.

Thanks for all the great education.

Dan Rad
Mac Pro 3.33 6 Core
10.13.6
Logic 10.3.3
Taurus
 
User avatar
fuzzfilth
Posts: 4749
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:31 am
Location: Germany

Re: Why does logic bounce mixes that sound lower then real time?

Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:52 am

stellar

superb, beautiful, extraordinary, badass, great

Does that mix level determine how much dynamic range (in use of bits) you get from your bounce?

Yes, although you could create a mix with -30dBFs which would be ridiculously quiet and still have more dynamic range than tape has. So don't worry about 'unused' bits, louder mixes don't have audibly better resolution.

normalizing happens to the FILE

Yes. An invisible temp file is written (quite possibly with no resolution loss in 32bit), then measured and scaled to 0dBFs, the result written into the actual 24bit file. No dynamic fader changes are involved whatsoever, this is a static level adjustment across the entire file.
Christian Obermaier
Contact me for private Logic Consulting, Training, Troubleshooting via Skype, Zoom or Teamviewer

1 x MacPro 6core 2010 24Gb RAM
2 x MacBookPro i7 2012 16Gb RAM
OSX.14.6. Mojave, Logic X.4.4 & 5.1
 
User avatar
fisherking
Posts: 6178
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 5:51 am
Location: new york
Contact:

Re: Why does logic bounce mixes that sound lower then real time?

Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:26 am

fuzzfilth wrote:
normalizing happens to the FILE

Yes. An invisible temp file is written (quite possibly with no resolution loss in 32bit), then measured and scaled to 0dBFs, the result written into the actual 24bit file. No dynamic fader changes are involved whatsoever, this is a static level adjustment across the entire file.


i dunno, dude... i've never heard any static when normalizing a bounce... :?
LP10.6.2 • os11.5b • 2019 3.2 i7 imac • one plugin short of perfection
http://upstatebrooklyn.com
 
User avatar
fuzzfilth
Posts: 4749
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:31 am
Location: Germany

Re: Why does logic bounce mixes that sound lower then real time?

Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:32 am

So what's the right word then ?
Christian Obermaier
Contact me for private Logic Consulting, Training, Troubleshooting via Skype, Zoom or Teamviewer

1 x MacPro 6core 2010 24Gb RAM
2 x MacBookPro i7 2012 16Gb RAM
OSX.14.6. Mojave, Logic X.4.4 & 5.1
 
User avatar
fisherking
Posts: 6178
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 5:51 am
Location: new york
Contact:

Re: Why does logic bounce mixes that sound lower then real time?

Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:56 am

fuzzfilth wrote:
So what's the right word then ?


& what's the left word??

fuzzfilth, seriously; your answers on the forum, and your explanations are stellar... and i appreciate that (and the others here who are so good at logic). thanks for real 8-)
LP10.6.2 • os11.5b • 2019 3.2 i7 imac • one plugin short of perfection
http://upstatebrooklyn.com
 
User avatar
David Nahmani
Site Admin
Posts: 84668
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:16 am
Contact:

Re: Why does logic bounce mixes that sound lower then real time?

Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:41 am

DanRad wrote:
IF as I've added tracks, that "Output 1-2" starts getting deep in the red, and I simply turn it down, say from 0.0 to -3.0 ... or vice versa, turn it up to have a nice level that stays within a realistic range on the meter, am I degrading my final product in some way?

No. You're just adjusting the gain, that doesn't degrade the quality of the audio signal any more than adjusting the gain anywhere else in the Mixer.

DanRad wrote:
Am I committing sonic murder of some sort with this behavior? If the majority of my individual tracks are not peaking, nor languishing at the bottom of the meter, can I just adjust that last level to make sure the final product is getting the full resolution of available bits?

Yes.

DanRad wrote:
I also usually "normalize" when bouncing. Assuming that if I'm "Leaving Bits on Table," I'll reclaim that resolution with normalization.

Normalize when bouncing is the same as adjusting the Stereo Out fader level, only instead of painstakingly waiting for your whole mix to play to determine that it peaks at, say, -3.7 dBFS when you'd want it to peak at 0 dBFS and then turning the Stereo Out fader to +3.7 dBFS to compensate, you use Normalize which automatically determines that the gain that should be applied is +3.7 dBFS. The workflow is different, but the result is the same.

In any of these cases, you're not losing any resolution or quality.
David Nahmani
• My Logic Pro X 10.5 book (Apple Pro Training Series)
Contact me for Private Lessons
Logic Pro X 10.6.1
MacBook Air 1.3 GHz i5 — MacOS X 11.0.1 — 4 GB RAM
iMac 3.2 GHz Quad Core i5 — MacOS X 10.15.4 — 8 GB RAM
 
User avatar
johnnytucats
Posts: 94
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:31 pm

Re: Why does logic bounce mixes that sound lower then real time?

Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:40 pm

As to the OP's issue I've never experienced lower volume from a mix file than what I heard in Logic Pro.

Looking at the "Bounce" dialog I'll mention that I've never done any projects using "surround" sound and it hasn't been mentioned in this thread so I don't know if that could somehow alter the loudness.

I think the question should be, "What is the issue with my setup that I am experiencing this?" and you should include details of your setup.
Logic Pro 10.5.1
macOS 10.14.6
 
User avatar
Ploki
Posts: 4510
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:59 am
Location: Slovenia
Contact:

Re: Why does logic bounce mixes that sound lower then real time?

Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:26 pm

DanRad wrote:
Ok... one last question. Does that mix level determine how much dynamic range (in use of bits) you get from your bounce? If my output looks super low, am I only getting a portion of the bit depth? It would appear to my untrained eye, that the normalizing happens to the FILE, after the mix/bounce, not before. Though the "Overload Protection" option might undermine that theory, indicating that some sort of autopilot fader change is happening behind the scenes.

Thanks for all the great education.

Dan Rad


Logic always bounces to 32bit FP first - "Overload protection" normalizes to 0 dB before truncating to 24bit file.

Yes if you bounce to 24bit you're losing bit depth.
However, that bit depth is merely noise floor. You're not losing "resolution" or "dynamics", merely your noise level, which is still waaay lower than anything else in your signal path.
<desktop pending> | 13" M1 Pro | Big Sur 11.1 | Logic 10.6.1
RME FireFace 800 / UFX+ | ROLI Seaboard RISE 25 | ROLI Blocks | nOb Control | StreamDeck