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Why does logic bounce mixes that sound lower then real time?


BritishBoxer

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ok, I got 10.6 etc

Catalina 10.15.7

Late 2013 MacBook Pro i7, 16GB ram, 500SSD

 

ive been trying to figure out why my everything I bounce in logic does not sound as loud or identicle, as when I am actually mixing,

I mean we are in the box, digital domaine, both the final mp3/mp4 etc should sound identical no?

 

I tried a number of ways to bounce, the loudest seemed to be shutting off normalise during bounce, and you would think this on gave a boost.

no matter what. still does not sound identical while Pro Tools, cubase, Live, etc all bounce down mp3s etc with the identical levels.

 

hoping someone here had some answers to this

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Yeh I understand and agree with you, but it does not answer my question to why logic can not produce a bounced mix that sounds identical to the loudness during a session., example, if there is no clipping and its loud then it should remain sonically denticle.

 

Not sure if your aware but Rick Rubin, Andrew Scheps, Andy Wallace and a number of producers and engineers who mix as loud as possible dont even send anything to a mastering house any more because it gets rejected due to reasons me and you mentioned here....and regardless of we and others think Logic should bounce even super over clipped sessions if thats the effect one wants.

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Do you have the 'Normalize' on or off in the bounce dialog?

 

normalize.jpg

 

Logic only normalizes when that option is turned on.

 

already mentioned that, shutting off normalise still does not help create a bounce with the identical sound one hears during their final mix

 

So is this a BUG or FLAW logic users naively over looked?

Pro Tools is fine when bounced, IDENTICAL

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I agree, if there's no clipping it should be exactly the same in the bounce. I have found that to be the case countless times over the past 28 years with Logic, except for the few occasions where I was dumb enough to not deactivate Normalize and the one case where I did it on purpose. (EDIT: And that one incident where the ungodly Master Fader wasn't at unity)

 

If you think your unclipped mix differs from the bounce, do a null test and report the results.

 

Not sure if your aware but Rick Rubin, Andrew Scheps, Andy Wallace and a number of producers and engineers who mix as loud as possible dont even send anything to a mastering house any more because it gets rejected due to reasons me and you mentioned here....and regardless of we and others think Logic should bounce even super over clipped sessions if thats the effect one wants.

I highly doubt that any of the guys you mentioned hands in mixes where they clipped the actual bounce, and I'll tell you why. If you clip something with, say, a Limiter, a Transient Designer, a Clipper, an overdriven Mic Pre, a Fuzz guitar pedal, etc, you'll get a predictable result or at least a result that you can reliably monitor. If you, on the other hand, feed a stream of 1s to your converters, your converters may sound thicc. Or awful. Or crunchy. Or go into Mute. This entirely depends on the DA and its architecture, and you have no control over it except for using other converters. It will sound different on another set of DAs at your clients place over which you have even less control.

 

So you're creating something which will sound different on any playback system out there. I'm not sure if that makes you feel comfortable, it surely doesn't make me. If I feel the need to get clipped sound, I'd rather do it properly, and clipping the bounce on the way out does not qualify for that.

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I highly doubt that any of the guys you mentioned (Rick Rubin etc) hands in mixes where they clipped the actual bounce

 

The reasons they dont use logic are actually public, but I asked them during a class anyway, and they dont care what me, you or mastering houses say about their mixes, its why they are successful and btw no one mixes in the red clipping as you have been insinuating...although its un related to the question which is WHY DO THE BOUNCED MIXES SOUND SONICALLY LOWER then during the session.

 

If your using a program (be it graphics, audio, video etc) but it produces different results from your work then you are either doing something wrong or need to move on if thats the case., and based on you comments I take it you are speaking in behalf of Apple and everyone here on this site, there is no solution?

 

PS Apple claims its the speakers, a plug in, what's next, my ears?

Edited by BritishBoxer
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user error most likely. My realtime/offline bounces are identical and have been for the past 10+ years.

 

The only way it couldn't be is if you're clipping severely and bouncing to 24bit file. If you bounce to 32bit FP, even that shouldn't matter.

 

Where are you listening the bounces to? How do they appear if you drag them both to logic? Are you using modulating FX?

Edited by Ploki
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user error most likely. My realtime/offline bounces are identical and have been for the past 10+ years.

 

The only way it couldn't be is if you're clipping severely and bouncing to 24bit file. If you bounce to 32bit FP, even that shouldn't matter.

 

Where are you listening the bounces to? How do they appear if you drag them both to logic? Are you using modulating FX?

final cut bounces audio files that play back with the identical volume, clipping or not

 

so if logics output is hotter it should remain the same way in the final regardless of clipping, try it, not normal if you ask me

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No personal attacks are allowed on this forum: https://www.logicprohelp.com/faq.php

 

I removed all offensive content in your previous posts, let's keep the discussion on topic from now on.

 

Now the hard facts: when you press Play in Logic, Logic routes a stream of bits (organized in samples) to your converter. Each individual bit has either the value 0, or the value 1. When you bounce a mix in Logic, Logic routes the same identical stream of bits, same zeroes and ones values to record them in an audio file on your Mac. If you then playback the bounced file through a transparent player (one that does not affect the sound in any way) then you'll get the same stream of the same values routed to your converters.

 

Thinking of it at the bit level, it means that if Logic outputs a "1", then it also bounces a "1" to the bounced audio file. There is never a time when Logic gets creative and decides on its own that it will output a "1" but bounce a "0".

 

The only way you can measure (or hear) a difference is when you, as the end user, have flipped a switch to make the values different, or used a process that affects those values. Common user errors include the use of Normalize during bouncing, the use of iTunes for Playback (when iTunes can add processes that are not transparent during playback), or performing null tests with non-linear sources (synthesizers with free running oscillators, noise sources) or processes (free running modulation sources, analog gear emulations, pseudo-random behaviors etc).

 

But if the result of Logic's audio engine's calculation is that at any point in time a specific bit representing the audio signal at the output of Logic should have the value "X", then Logic will output the value "X", independently of whether you're in playback and the "X" value is routed to a D/A converter or you're bouncing and the "X" value is store in an audio file.

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No personal attacks are allowed on this forum: https://www.logicprohelp.com/faq.php

 

I removed all offensive content in your previous posts, let's keep the discussion on topic from now on.

 

Now the hard facts: when you press Play in Logic, Logic routes a stream of bits (organized in samples) to your converter. Each individual bit has either the value 0, or the value 1. When you bounce a mix in Logic, Logic routes the same identical stream of bits, same zeroes and ones values to record them in an audio file on your Mac. If you then playback the bounced file through a transparent player (one that does not affect the sound in any way) then you'll get the same stream of the same values routed to your converters.

 

Ok, when you bounce in FCP Etc etc etc go to your file (mp3 etc etc) press the spacebar and tell me if the volume of your bounced file is the same as your DAW....then try this with logic

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mp3 compression is not a transparent process so I suggest you start doing tests with PCM files (WAV or AIFF, 24 bits, 48kHz).

 

I don't own FCP. But when I bounce a file in Logic and press the spacebar in the Finder to listen to it with QuickLook, assuming I'm using the same audio interface with the same settings for both my system sound and Logic's outputs, then it sounds exactly the same, yes. If it did not, I wouldn't have trusted this DAW software for professional music production for the past 20+ years now.

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I haven't heard the effect of "stuff is uniformly more quiet," but the compression and other signal-processing that occurs with MP3, and with [especially, "cheap"] MP3 players can certainly make a difference in the sound. Maybe a very big difference. If you upload a file to a place like SoundCloud, then download it again and compare, there you will also very often find that the waveform is now considerably different.

 

They say that at Abbey Road they had a "cheap AM radio speaker" in the mixing room so they could hear how many actual audience members in those days would experience their music. It pays to go to a grocery store and buy an MP3 player with earbuds ... the least-expensive one you can find there ... and listen to your finished mix. Because, that's what your audience is going to hear.

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You've only mentioned MP3, not WAV (which is an exact render of the output, or Normalised if selected). MP3 format is the result of a conversion process, and this process _can_ change the quality of the sound depending on the settings.

 

When you go to the Export window, click on the MP3 thing in the list of Destination output formats and in the upper right you can choose the quality of the MP3 conversions. The laughably low defaults of 96kbps seem to be the lowest setting so make sure you set both Bit Rate Stereo/Mono to 320kbps.

 

I only say this because I had exactly this problem recently at a studio; perhaps they never need to send MP3s to clients, I thought.

 

Hope that helps!

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Let me be more clear about this as i spoke to apple.

The file we bounce down maybe identical frequency wise, etc, but unlike files bounced by other apps the volume appears to playback 30% lower inside your mac finder or finder via hardware if that is the route your internal apple sound goes through.

 

So apple was not even talking about the actual volume of logic compared to the apple finder when i spoke to them (several ppl) and they made no sense at all with explaining it to me, their assumption was that the finder volume is lower then the 3rd party sound card, which is hypothetical.

 

Im asking why the finder plays back audio from a file created by logic 30% lower while other apps sound identical 100% loudness, was this due to multi-tracks etc etc?

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Im asking why the finder plays back audio from a file created by logic 30% lower while other apps sound identical 100% loudness, was this due to multi-tracks etc etc?

It should be identical 100% loudness.

 

Any audio file plays back at the same level independently of

 

• How the file was produced (Final Cut Pro export, Logic bounce, etc...)

• The playback device (whether it's Logic, the Finder, QuickTime, ProTools, Final Cut Pro, Fruity Loops etc...).

 

If that's not what you're experiencing, then we can help you troubleshoot your situation methodically, so that you can get the expected behavior like the rest of us. This troubleshooting may take a little bit of back and forth with us asking you questions and you answering them until we can find the reason you're not experiencing the expected behavior, so arm yourself with patience.

 

First, two questions:

 

1. What is the Output device pop-up set to in Logic Pro's audio preferences?

2. In your Mac's System Preferences, under Sound :: Output, what device is selected?

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final cut bounces audio files that play back with the identical volume, clipping or not

 

so if logics output is hotter it should remain the same way in the final regardless of clipping, try it, not normal if you ask me

 

I tried it, bounced something +18dB on the outputs.

Bounced 24bit and 32bit fp.

same relative loudness, 24bit file is clipped at 0, 32bit FP file is +18dB.

 

as i said before, you're doing something wrong

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This post raised two questions that I'd be curious to have answered by those more knowledgable than me. (7.6 billion or more)

1. Would things like compression or other dynamic processing react differently in a real time vs. offline bounce. (I would hope not, but that seems possible)

2. Someone mentioned "unity gain" (+0) on the output bus being a factor in bounce quality. Is that an accepted fact? If so, why.

 

Thanks, still learning after all these years (25 with Logic_45 in pro studios)

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re 1: personally, i have never heard any differences with 'static' plugins (like compression) in a mix, bounced live or offline. the only thing i've ever seen different is with some complex synths (cypher 2 comes to mind), and how an evolving sound plays out. plus, i've had maybe 2 projects in 16 years that had some sustain issues... that bounced correctly only when done realtime.

 

as for 2, someone can explain this better, but 0 is...0, neither a boost nor a reduction in level, so, theoretically, has no effect on what passes thru it.

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"unity gain" (+0) on the output bus being a factor in bounce quality.

I mentioned the Master Fader, which is different from the Stereo Out. It's the devil's work and here's why:

 

MF affects all outputs, and invisibly, so if MF is set to -3, your drummer's headphones will be 3dB quieter, despite that output's fader looking untouched. Add to this that the conveniently placed, easy to reach, *unnamed*, horizontal fader top right in the Main window is controlling that very MF and you're set up for some frustrating troubleshooting. There are countless posts on this and other forums which go "My Bounce levels are different! Logic sux!". And as a substitute for the IT-Guys' proverbial "Is it plugged in ? Have you tried turning it off and on again?" the proper reply is "Disable Normalize. Set the Master Fader back to unity." and lo and behold, everything is fine again.

 

MF does not affect Bounce quality, it changes its level, and there is no known use case where you actually want that to happen invisibly.

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This post raised two questions that I'd be curious to have answered by those more knowledgable than me. (7.6 billion or more)

1. Would things like compression or other dynamic processing react differently in a real time vs. offline bounce. (I would hope not, but that seems possible)

2. Someone mentioned "unity gain" (+0) on the output bus being a factor in bounce quality. Is that an accepted fact? If so, why.

 

Thanks, still learning after all these years (25 with Logic_45 in pro studios)

1. no, unless processors have "offline oversampling" (so they oversample i.e. @2x realtime and @4x,8x at offline).

In that case, time constants are affected, and for distortion/saturation effects, they'll have less aliasing.

That however is optional in most properly coded plugins, and you can generally disable it, or set it to the same oversampling regardless of whether it's realtime or offline.

 

2. no.

Logic has a 64bit mixer.

If you bounce at 24bits, the only thing affected is noise floor. If you bounce so your outputs peak at 0dB, you'll have digital noise floor at ~ -144dB FS.

If you bounce so your outputs peak at -12dB FS, and you bring it up to 0dB afterwards (during mastering), your digital noise floor will be at ~ -136dB FS.

Still much lower than anything else you recorded or any analog gear or ADC/DAC (best converters are ~ -120dB FS)

 

If you bounce at 32bit FP, nothing will be different whatsoever, even if your master output goes over the red. (in Logic 10.5+, it can go WAAY over 0).

If you bounce at 24bit with master output going over 0dB FS, and set normalize option to "prevent overloads", you won't have any issues with 24bit exports either.

 

Hope that clears it up.

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"unity gain" (+0) on the output bus being a factor in bounce quality.

I mentioned the Master Fader, which is different from the Stereo Out. It's the devil's work and here's why:

 

MF affects all outputs, and invisibly, so if MF is set to -3, your drummer's headphones will be 3dB quieter, despite that output's fader looking untouched. Add to this that the conveniently placed, easy to reach, *unnamed*, horizontal fader top right in the Main window is controlling that very MF and you're set up for some frustrating troubleshooting. There are countless posts on this and other forums which go "My Bounce levels are different! Logic sux!". And as a substitute for the IT-Guys' proverbial "Is it plugged in ? Have you tried turning it off and on again?" the proper reply is "Disable Normalize. Set the Master Fader back to unity." and lo and behold, everything is fine again.

 

MF does not affect Bounce quality, it changes its level, and there is no known use case where you actually want that to happen invisibly.

 

Yes, I regularly fall into this trap, MF not at 0. I never use/touch this fader myself, but people who send me projects do...

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I've been a victim of this as well. It's really become a habit for me to constantly double-check that the master fader and the Stereo Out fader are always, always set to zero.

 

And I've been lobbying Apple to remove the Master fader from the Mixer altogether when working only with a single stereo output (Stereo Out = Output 1-2) which I would suppose is the case for 98% of Logic users. For years. And remove the silly amateurish volume slider in the Control bar, which is responsible for so many users scratching their head in disbelief come bouncing time. But I suppose they (Apple) don't want to hear it. :(

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I've been a victim of this as well. It's really become a habit for me to constantly double-check that the master fader and the Stereo Out fader are always, always set to zero.

 

And I've been lobbying Apple to remove the Master fader from the Mixer altogether when working only with a single stereo output (Stereo Out = Output 1-2) which I would suppose is the case for 98% of Logic users. For years. And remove the silly amateurish volume slider in the Control bar, which is responsible for so many users scratching their head in disbelief come bouncing time. But I suppose they (Apple) don't want to hear it. :(

 

i've always hidden the volume slider in the menu, it is ridiculous. and i never go near the master fader, it's always at 0.

 

that slider seems very 'garageband 2004'... and yeah, it should be removed.

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Thank you all for your input. AND...I guess I need a more simple answer to the master fader/bounce question.

I'm assuming (possibly incorrectly) that "Output 1-2" which contains the "Bnc" button, is is the summed "source" of my bounced final product.

1135209764_ScreenShot2021-04-21at8_23_04AM.png.f119cca4eef3230ce13a6567ba3b2fa7.png

IF as I've added tracks, that "Output 1-2" starts getting deep in the red, and I simply turn it down, say from 0.0 to -3.0 ... or vice versa, turn it up to have a nice level that stays within a realistic range on the meter, am I degrading my final product in some way? Yes, an alternative would be to lower or raise all levels in order to leave that fader at 0.0 but keep the output from peaking or being too low.

But many people have told me that my best quality is my laziness. So instead of addressing EVERY part of the mix to lower the overall level and keep the the signal in a respectable window, I exercise that wonderful laziness and just lower that fader. Am I committing sonic murder of some sort with this behavior? If the majority of my individual tracks are not peaking, nor languishing at the bottom of the meter, can I just adjust that last level to make sure the final product is getting the full resolution of available bits? I also usually "normalize" when bouncing. Assuming that if I'm "Leaving Bits on Table," I'll reclaim that resolution with normalization.

 

I throw myself before the mercy of the court.

 

Dan Rad

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Ok... one last question. Does that mix level determine how much dynamic range (in use of bits) you get from your bounce? If my output looks super low, am I only getting a portion of the bit depth? It would appear to my untrained eye, that the normalizing happens to the FILE, after the mix/bounce, not before. Though the "Overload Protection" option might undermine that theory, indicating that some sort of autopilot fader change is happening behind the scenes.

 

Thanks for all the great education.

 

Dan Rad

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