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SMPTE lock tempo changes


twistiejoe

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Yeah the problem is we all use Logic and have for years so, we gotta stick with logic. We use logic because we love it’s built-in sounds and loops for what we do.

 

Anyway I will just have to keep dealing with the frustration. I might also just have to be more careful making SMPTE locked markers as indicators of tempo changes. I’ve gotten by so far I guess. Would just be nicer to not have to waste so much time doing it. Sometimes I also use a 2nd tempo map which can be done too.

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+1 on what dewdman said.

I usually sit out a couple of edits before adjusting everything, unless i'm specifically asked to deliver new music. They usually don't need it when fine-tuning the edit, and it saves me from doing same tedious s#!+ 5 times over

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I don't particularly think the whole guts of LogicPro would have to change for this. (it might in order to support a chunks type of feature, but that is a seperate topic).

That's what I meant when I was hinting at a complete overhaul of the audio engine: a possibility to have partial measures, to have the ruler stop and restart in a "floating" mode, meaning for example a way to precisely determine at what SMPTE to start cue #2 bar 1, without affecting the tempo or time signature of any part of cue #1 at all (which infers partial measures). THAT would require an overhaul of the audio engine.

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I don't particularly think the whole guts of LogicPro would have to change for this. (it might in order to support a chunks type of feature, but that is a seperate topic).

That's what I meant when I was hinting at a complete overhaul of the audio engine: a possibility to have partial measures.

 

Would it though? You don’t need partial measures you just need a meter change that lasts for a bar or two. The engine already supports this

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Would it though? You don’t need partial measures you just need a meter change that lasts for a bar or two. The engine already supports this

Yes it does. If changing meters and tempo for a bar or two is your solution, then there's no need for an overhaul. But then in that case, how do you propose Logic handles it when you change the tempo or time signature before the SMPTE-locked tempo change? Change meter and tempo however it needs? Make suggestions to the user and give them a choice? I'm not saying it's impossible (after all Logic is already capable of that, see alert below). However, it's not necessarily foolproof to implement, and what will make a user happy will most likely be deemed a bug by another.

 

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well I'm in agreement with you that Apple has about a 0.00001% chance of doing anything remotely like this... Mostly because of limited market demand, but since we're dreaming...

 

There are various ways it could be approached from a GUI perspective, which is the part that I would consider to be the most complicated, more so than the actual audio engine.

 

Yes...the way a composer deals with this situation is by changing some tempo and changing some meters...so that things still line up. If a composer can do it...LogicPro can do it.....more quickly.

 

For any two hit points there are numerous tempos that will work to keep them both on a beat grid line. For two reasons..

 

  1. There is some tempo that will line up both hit points on beat lines. There is another faster tempo that will line them up with one additional beat added, another slower tempo with one beat removed, from that span of time. And so on...
     
  2. There is an acceptable tolerance of several hundred midi ticks for the hit point to line up with a beat line. That translates to a range of tempos for each number-of-beats situation between any two hit points.

 

So if you move a hit point, you have to adjust some tempos, which affect all the hit points coming after, but also the tempo leading up to it. You can adjust the tempo and adjust the meter, even if its just a bar or two at 3/4 or 5/8...ahead of the hit point change..and that will usually do it...

 

But the complexity comes from the fact that there can be more than one simple choice. So a simple dialog box like that, would probably not suffice, because that would only be yes/no to one of the possible choices. More likely it would require some kind of interface that is similar to the way beat mapping works...but slightly different for this purpose and spread out at a higher level rather then beat to beat...it would be more like measure to measure.. or hit point to hit point, etc..I'm not trying to define it exactly right now..just saying...there could be some kind of cool interactive solution that takes the tempo-calculating-mental-pain out of it, while still giving the composer tools to make the necessary choices to deal with the scenario. You drag lines to line up with other lines....end up with "partial measure" space? Ok, shade that in and you drag something else which starts bringing tempo changes and various meter options to keep things lined up. Its all doable. its not a matter of keeping a partial measure, its a matter of being able to tweak the conductor track until the hit points line up again with tempo and meter changes to make it happen...and yes...I agree, it may not be that easy to provide all the possible meter change choices and tempo choices...becuase like I said..there can be numerous different tempo choices or meter choices...but probably there is a "closest fit" kind of choice that would keep the tempo as close as possible, or another simple first choice would be to try to keep the meter as close as possible even if the tempo change is bigger, etc..

 

Its definitely doable. Given that DP has so many other awesome film scoring tools, I am surprised that it already doesn't offer this, but it doesn't. LogicPros beat mapping tool is actually the closest cool thing I have seen that is "close but not quite".

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There are various ways it could be approached from a GUI perspective, which is the part that I would consider to be the most complicated, more so than the actual audio engine.

Yes we agree: the audio engine comment was for a feature based on partial measures or something kinda like "chunks" in DP, like restarting the time ruler at any given precise SMPTE time with a new bar 1 for cue #2 without affecting cue #1 time signatures or tempo at all.

 

And good point about "if a composer can do it, so can Logic". I agree with that too. However a human makes many decisions based on feeling, experimentation, compromise etc... so it may be a bit convoluted to establish that dialog between Logic and the composer. But yes, nothing's impossible. I remember in my early days of teaching when I explained to my students that it was impossible (and would never be possible) for a computer to identify the pitches of multiple notes in a polyphonic audio recording and transpose them individually for example to change a major chord into a minor one. Then came Melodyne DNA!! :shock:

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So the chunks feature of DP I do think would likely be very difficult to do in LogicPro, but just to clarify what it does..it just provides a way to keep a list of "seqeunces" in one project file, each one is completely self contained sequence just like a LPX project. Each one starts at barbeat 1:1 (unless you define it otherwise). Each one has its own track mixer to host instruments and plugins, etc.. Then you can link one video to all of them, each one have its own SMPTE start time. So then if you select one of those sequences and hit play..the video will be synced up to the correct place in the video, etc. Its basically just encapsulating a complete sequence into an object that you can create more than one of in DP. They call them "chunks" which has never been the best name, because you can also take those sequences and use them to build a "song" if you want...so then they become chunks of a song. You don't have to do that though.

 

They also have V-Racks which are another type of chunk, which are just the mixer part of a sequence, without any actual timeline. So you can, for example, have 13 sequences...each its own independent thing, but they can all be connected to one V-Rack..which is the mixer part...hosting the instruments...so they basically would all be sharing the same mixer that way.

 

LogicPro could handle something like that, but it would be a lot of work. I don't think they will do it. I think LogicPro is more focused around song writing, which is their target audience, and I personally don't think the DP chunks-into-songs, is necessarily the most intuitive way to build songs up from sections. LogicPro instead has its arrangement track concept and that is how they have decided to do it.

 

DP chunks are more useful in film scoring where each sequence object could be more like a complete cue...which might be anywhere from 10 seconds to a few minutes....and each one can start at 1:1 and be fully independent from the others...as if it were inside its own seperate project really...but still sharing the same instrument mixer track..and you don't have to keep reloading projects in and out to work on the different cues.

 

In some cases someone could build up the final video music by building up a "song" with those sequence chunks....but in actuality they are more likely to deliver stems to someone, one for each cue...and someone in post production will add those stems to the video at the right places. The DP chunks feature just makes it easy and convenient to work on all your cues from one project, share Musical ideas between them and have a nice clean sequence for each one, starting at 1:1, etc.. Within a cue, you can still have tempo Changes and hit points that need to line up...and the same problem about having to readjust tempos and meters comes up if the film screw makes edits in the middle of the cue somewhere...

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  • 1 year later...
6 minutes ago, Atlas007 said:

I wonder if Logic was having many timegrids instead of single one...

I think that would most likely be a nightmare for the developers to handle. There has to be one main underlying clock all other grids are based on. As it is now the main underlying clock is the bar-beat MIDI sequencer, and it's hard enough keeping it in sync with the audio sample clock that is based on the project sample rate (hence the common error while trying to synchronize audio and MIDI). 

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4 minutes ago, David Nahmani said:

I think that would most likely be a nightmare for the developers to handle. There has to be one main underlying clock all other grids are based on. As it is now the main underlying clock is the bar-beat MIDI sequencer, and it's hard enough keeping it in sync with the audio sample clock that is based on the project sample rate (hence the common error while trying to synchronize audio and MIDI). 

Indeed!

The developers already have plenty of issues to solve in priority...

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Sorry to jump in here. Music editing and re-conforming Logic projects to new picture edits is my daily bread and butter. So I know a bit about it and how annoying it is.

I don't really want to join the discussion about SMTPE, time, tempo and musical grid I think everything has been said and most people here understand that if you change one you change the other dramatically and it has consequences regarding our musical grid and understanding of downbeats etc...

BUT: a feature that would make things so much easier for all of us re-conforming is (wait for it) region groups.

Region Groups would work in the way that I select regions and tell Logic - these belong together, please remember and recall this selection later. That way it would be so much simpler to create these edits...

Right now I'm helping myself out with the region solo-lock feature that kind of does this, but only temporarily and only for 1 group of regions (read: one section of music), and it's easy to loose the selection again and screw it up...

This would not solve the OPs (and all of our) problems regarding SMTPE, tempo and grid (if it is even algorithmically solvable, logic (not the program) dictates that it is not because there are musical decisions to be made that an algorithm cannot know)  - but it would make working around it much much more straight forward.

If you agree, please let the devs at Apple know on the feedback page.

As a side question: do you guys create cut maps with dummy regions? I sometimes do and I sometimes create the edit with just dummy regions on no-output tracks first in order to really understand where the material has to go. Then I can drag to those dummy regions.

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Logic already has multiple time grids.  Just comparing between real time and bars beats, are two different ways of measuring time.  I'm quite sure that there is one primary internal time grid..most likely its absolute realtime sample position, but we can only guess at that.  All other time grids, including SMPTE and bar/beat are calculated based on various factors including elapsed time, frame rate and tempo.

There is no reason why different time grids, calculated off of absolute sample position, couldn't be represented, but I'm not sure what would be accomplished by that?  what other time grids would you like to see at the same time and why?

Edited by Dewdman42
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9 hours ago, wonshu said:

Region Groups would work in the way that I select regions and tell Logic -

Aren’t region folder that?

 

4 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

but I'm not sure what would be accomplished by that?  what other time grids would you like to see at the same time and why?

That was just an intuitive thought.

What if each selectable elements (track or region or events or etc) could be assigned to its own timegrid (which could have if needed its own editable/recalculable SMPTE offset). I.e. each cue could be assigned to a different timegrid (SMPTE offset). That could allow to have different tempo map for each elements. Besides easing dealing with cues, I think that would appreciably enhance creative opportunities.

Anyhow, as you guessed, my comments are naive in nature, since I’m not a programmer expert…

Edited by Atlas007
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2 minutes ago, Atlas007 said:

Aren’t region folder that?

That was just an intuitive thought.

What if each selectable elements (track or region or events or etc) could be assigned to its own timegrid (which could have if needed its own editable/recalculable SMPTE offset). I.e. each cue could be assigned to a different timegrid (SMPTE offset). That could allow to have different tempo map for each elements.

You still have the same problem that if one bit of music comes after another bit of music...regardless of what timelines they are using..if you change the length or tempo of anything in the first bit, the second bit has to be moved in time.

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I still fail to understand why would need or want different time lines to do what you are asking, we have already talked about something like DP chunks where you could be able to set a starting SMPTE locked point in time for the start of a sub-sequence.  There is no need for separate timelines..and you also have to concern with music ending up overlapping when you change tempo or add/delete scenes.

The only use of multiple timelines is really to view time in different formats...for example to see both SMPTE and sample position and BARS:BEATS. 

What I think you are really asking for is two or more "separate sequences".  That is what DP's chunk feature is.  And yes that could be cool in LogicPro, but would not totally solve the problems that were talked about on this thread, only in some cases might help a bit but ultimately if you had any edits come in after the fact within one of those sub-subquences..then you still end up with having to deal with tempo and meter changes to accommodate the edits.

 

 

Edited by Dewdman42
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The way I understand Logic is implemented, it makes all the elements set to a single time reference (namely single SMPTE-timegrid/tempo map offset) while being able to have different ones could help dealing with cues and tempo mapping edition.

I understand that editing scene length for instance would most likely require music/sound layout adjustment. But unless a DAW can guess the scene editor’s mind, music composer would have to intervene.

Again. all my comments aren’t based on under-the-hood Logic knowledge…

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you are basically asking for a separate sequence, not just a "timeline". 

When I hear the word "timeline" I am thinking about different ways of representing the passage of time...could be BARS:BEATS, SMPTE, sample position.  Different timeline rulers to represent the passage of time.

What I think you mean when you say "timeline" is you want a way to completely isolate a set of tracks with regions so that they are locked to start at a certain SMPTE location.   which is basically the entire arrange page...its one "sequence".  You are really wanting what DP h as already as we discussed last year:  chunks. 

Putting all word selection aside....you say tomahto I say tomayto...  This is what we discussed last year when we were talking about chunks.

It doesn't actually have to be that difficult to do in LogicPro, but I doubt they will, but basically when you open the arrange window, you are looking at a single "sequence", or timeline as you are calling it.  That sequence has a locked SMPTE start time and any number of tracks with regions in them.   But there is only one.  If LogicPro could have numerous arrange pages...each one a completely separate sequence which is itself its own collection of tracks with a locked SMPTE start time...and they could all point to the same shared mixer.  Then you'd be getting close to DP's chunks work flow.

LogicPro for now at best has track folders, but can they be locked to SMPTE point in time?  If so then maybe that could be used.  But I don't think they can be, could be wrong though.

Can you lock a region to a SMPTE location?  If so then you might be able to lock all the regions in question, but that would be an administrative nightmare frankly.

The best solution would be for LogicPro to allow multiple sequences...each one being its own completely isolated Arrange page with its own tracks, its own regions and locked to start bar 1:1 at some particular SMPTE start time.  You'd still connect each of those tracks to direct their audio and midi to one common mixer...  And you would need LogicPro to be able to have some way to not only play any one of them at will as you wish, but also to chain them together into a larger piece of music representing the entire length of video.

That is what DP chunks do, as we discussed last year...and would be an improvement.  But you still only partially solve the problem that way.  If the video folks make edits within any of those sequences, then you still are back to dealing with it in difficult ways.

I think the original OP of this thread basically wanted to find a way to use LogicPro with multiple so called "cues", which most people put into separate LogicPro project files in order to have separate sequences.  But he needs to be able to quickly switch around while talking to the people he works with.  Well DP chunks are what he needs...or for Apple to implement something similar in LogicPro.  Putting all the cues into one LogicPro sequence (aka timeline) lead to madness. 

 

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8 hours ago, Atlas007 said:

Aren’t region folder that?

No.

Let's say a piece is 4 minutes long and has 150 tracks (channels), 7 piano, 8 guitars, 9 Woodwinds, 15 Strings, 12 Brass etc.etc.

That grouping has to visually be intact throughout the whole piece, because that's how we perceive music and organize mixing / stems.

But minute 0:30 to 1:15 has only a couple of regions playing from each of those sections, and this combination of music needs to move to a different place. Then these regions cannot be in one folder, because they belong to different instrument sections, but musically they are one group.

I hope I explained it better this way.

Anyway, folders do not work for this. Apart from the fact that they behave erratic, especially when moving automation and visually don't really represent what's going one inside. 

I understand the appeal of collapsable material, but I found when editing across hundreds of tracks it's better to rely on my eyes and my focus, the software has burned me too many times.

Edited by wonshu
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