lorenzogc Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 I just want this thread to be out there for people to see, I already know the answer. I was personally on exFAT, which was a mistake, and running my Logic projects through that HDD, which created system overload issues in Logic, so lesson learned. For SSD use APFS file system For HDD use Mac OS Extended (Journaled) file system To better understand file systems watch this video: Note: APFS was created specifically for SSD, not for HDD, you can still technically use APFS on HDD, but it is not recommended. Mac OS Extended (Journaled) works better for HDD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triplets Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 Yup, gotta double check when you buy an external HD or SSD. Logic does NOT like Fat32 and ExFat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamic_Notes Posted April 29, 2021 Share Posted April 29, 2021 Little confused by the video. He referred to TM using APFS format, unless he meant on internal SSD? Anyway I formatted my 2 external SSDs MacOS extended Journaled from DU. At the time I partitioned one drive for projects and TM as you could only use this format for TM on an external drive. I dont know if Apple has changed that requirement now for external SSDs for TM. On the other SSD I'm running Logic Libraries and other Logic stuff. What would be the benefit of reformatting this drive to APFS considering extra write cycles to temporarily move Logic Libraries back to internal drive and copy other stuff as well, then move and copy it back again? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triplets Posted April 29, 2021 Share Posted April 29, 2021 APFS was designed for SSDs. That's the benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorenzogc Posted April 29, 2021 Author Share Posted April 29, 2021 A quick Google/YouTube search could answer your question, but if you want my help here it is: Pros: - Compatible from the Apple Watch to the Mac Pro (not MacBook Pro, Mac Pro) - Increase speed - Save space - Save power - Fight against crashes - Help backup data more efficiently - Theoretically be more secure Features (watch the YouTube video to learn more about these features): The ones he goes into depth: - Space sharing: allows for fluid volumes of data, unlike the rigid ones in previous file systems - Copy on Write (COW): saves space, prevents crashes, and boosts speed; not a new technology, but its different how Apple is using it - Cloning: a cloned file doesn't take space (it might take up a little bit of space because of metadata) - Snapshots: Allows you to read the files - Atomic Safe-Save for document bundles: I have experienced this with macOS Extended (Journaled) where audio files seem to disappear and I have to locate them. APFS bypasses this POSIX limitation by performing the renamex_np. So this file system is better at not losing bundled data than previous ones. The other features he lists: - Supports 9 quintillion files - 1 nanosecond time stamp - Muti-key encryption - Fast directory sizing - Sparse files - Intelligent HDD defragmenter - A lot of APIs If you watch the YouTube video, you will notice he uses HFS+ to compare to APFS. According to arstechnica.com, "Mac OS Extended (Journaled) is also HFS+, but it has an extra mechanism that avoids corruption of the file system when something bad happens, such as loss of power during a write operation." Sources: https://tidbits.com/2018/07/23/what-apfs-does-for-you-and-what-you-can-do-with-apfs/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2007/05/pick-the-right-file-system-for-your-macs-internal-or-external-storage/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn L. Posted April 29, 2021 Share Posted April 29, 2021 I got lucky on my SSD setup and chose APFS, without knowing exactly why, lol. Works flawlessly, and it's so fast I can't tell the difference between it and storing things on the Mini itself. I just have to hope the SSD holds out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamic_Notes Posted April 29, 2021 Share Posted April 29, 2021 @lorenzogc thanks for the info. Went to Apple to check about TM which Apple recommends goes on a separate drive and for the iMac that means external, and that means TM will tell you to use MacOS extended (+), so looks like nothings changed there. Been thinking of a reshuffle of data on my external SSDs anyway. Seems like a good opportunity to reformat these babies. Going to get an External HDD 2TB or something for TM. Doesn't have to be fast for what I want it for. @Glenn Lancaster - Im fairly new to SSDs. Seems theyre pretty different to HDDs as far as maintainance and wear goes. Hope mine hold out as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted April 29, 2021 Share Posted April 29, 2021 @Glenn Lancaster - Im fairly new to SSDs. Seems theyre pretty different to HDDs as far as maintainance and wear goes. Hope mine hold out as well. Different .. as in better ? SSDs are generally better than HDD on nearly every front except cost: speed, wear and tear, resistance to shock, extreme temperatures, magnetic fields, vibrations, size, power consumption, heat generation... having no mechanical part, they can last longer and are less prone to failing. Here's a good article on the topic for more insight: https://www.backblaze.com/blog/how-reliable-are-ssds/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorenzogc Posted April 29, 2021 Author Share Posted April 29, 2021 and that means TM will tell you to use MacOS extended (+) So that other people are aware TM is Time Machine. I am not sure what you meant by Mac OS Extended (+) but I think you meant Mac OS Extended (Journaled). It depends which OS version you are on, macOS High Sierra on up to Catalina, they say; "The most common format for a Time Machine backup disk is Mac OS Extended format (Journaled) format, but Time Machine also supports Mac OS Extended (Case-sensitive, Journaled) and Xsan formats." This is the most common but not necessarily the one they recommend. APFS was not only created for SSDs, but also to work with the macOS software as well. It works very well with macOS High Sierra on up to Big Sur. Apple recommends APFS for Big Sur users. "APFS or APFS Encrypted disks are the preferred format for a Time Machine backup disk." https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/types-of-disks-you-can-use-with-time-machine-mh15139/mac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamic_Notes Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 Hi David, "Different .. as in better ?" Better in all you mentioned yes, except possibly wear and tear on external SSDs because *reportedly*, MacOS doesn't support Trim over USB, which as I understand, is an important part of maintainance along with garbage collection. We can safely leave it to Apple to manage internal SSD, but obviously we want to keep our external SSDs in optimal health IF this is a potential problem. (Theres a lot of conflicting info) The SamsungT5s apparently do support Trim but only from Windows. I've also read that modern well known brandnames' external SSDs manage their own garbage collection and though used on its own is not as efficient as in conjunction with Trim, its apparently enough. Ive also read thats it's a good idea to keep these at least 25% free. My internal and external SSds all have a lot of free space and I'll be keeping it that way. I shelled out a bit of cash for my T5s so its something I want to pay a bit of attention to. If Im wrong on any of this, then GOOD! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamic_Notes Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 Hi lorenzogc I find it annoying not knowing what all these acronyms are too so apologies for not using full name at least once (TM=Time Machine) "I am not sure what you meant by Mac OS Extended (+) but I think you meant Mac OS Extended (Journaled)." Yes. Just more clarifying I'd appreciate though is, is MacOS Extended (Journaled) and HFS+ the same thing? Thanks. Not sure why I didn't see what you saw but when I went to: "Types of disks you can use with Time Machine on Mac - Apple Support " it said: "The most common format for a Time Machine backup disk is Mac OS Extended format (Journaled) format, but Time Machine also supports Mac OS Extended (Case-sensitive, Journaled) and Xsan formats. Important: You can back up from an HFS+ or APFS-formatted disk to an HFS+ disk; however, Time Machine can’t back up to an APFS-formatted disk. If you select a back up disk formatted as APFS, Time Machine offers to reformat it as HFS+." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triplets Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 Just more clarifying I'd appreciate though is, is MacOS Extended (Journaled) and HFS+ the same thing? Thanks. HFS+ is the same as MacOX Extended. Journaled is an additional option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamic_Notes Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 @triplets Thanks. About this Mac said my 2 SSDs are "Journaled HFS +" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triplets Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 If you're not using the external SSDs for Time Machine, APFS is the better choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamic_Notes Posted May 1, 2021 Share Posted May 1, 2021 Hi @triplets. Yes, thanks to the advice here and in light of this thread thats exactly what I endeavour to do now. Reasons that have me considering an external HDD for Time Machine as opposed to an SSD are: (assuming) MacOS not utilizing Trim on external USB SSDs; How much Time Machine fills up the Drive before it starts deleting, and by it's nature TM needs to do a lot of writing anyway. In light of this do you think an HDD is adequate? ( I don't need it permanently connected, as it will only back up the OS now and then. All my projects are on external and I like to manually back them up ) Meanwhile as I'm reviewing things in the broader sense, like possibly getting some Native Intruments stuff which will need a whopping 1.1TB, it's on the cards I'm going to need a 3rd SSD and of course this will be formatted APFS from the get go. This generates other things to be considered such as running out of available ports on the iMac for things needing to be connected all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triplets Posted May 1, 2021 Share Posted May 1, 2021 How much Time Machine fills up the Drive before it starts deleting, and by it's nature TM needs to do a lot of writing anyway. In light of this do you think an HDD is adequate? You can grab any USB 3.0 HDD and use it for TM. TM will delete older backups automatically. And you just connect it when you need it. At some point you can also consider getting a Thunderbolt dock to get more ports if the need arises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamic_Notes Posted May 1, 2021 Share Posted May 1, 2021 Thanks again for your response @triplets HDDs are so cheap now, may opt for say, a 2TB, partition 1/2 for TM and 1/2 for a "data at rest" Backup of projects. A question re the Thunderbolt dock... as I understand things, a powered hub is better. If I went for a USB hub thats what I'd go for. Does a Thunderbolt dock make this a moot point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triplets Posted May 1, 2021 Share Posted May 1, 2021 Personally not a fan of partitions. Rather have a dedicated drive for TM. Regarding docks I use this one: https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/owc-thunderbolt-3-pro-dock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enossified Posted May 1, 2021 Share Posted May 1, 2021 as I understand things, a powered hub is better. If I went for a USB hub thats what I'd go for. Does a Thunderbolt dock make this a moot point? All Tbolt docks act as powered USB hubs. Personally not a fan of partitions.Rather have a dedicated drive for TM. I agree...it's just simpler to maintain. Plus how are you going to back up the other partitions on the drive? Drives are so cheap these days, about $25 per TB, no reason to skimp. Just choose a drive that's twice the size of the disk(s) that TM will back up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facej Posted May 1, 2021 Share Posted May 1, 2021 not really Time Machine - but - I use Carbon Copy Cloner to clone my drives every night. The target/destination drive is typically a 4TB HDD which I have APFS formatted with a separate "volume" for each of the drives I want to clone. Works great. Of course it does take a moment or 6 to mount the HDD, but I don't keep it mounted in any event. On my MBA I use Time Machine to an APFS formatted drive (SSD, USB3) which is plugged in to a little dock (Ethernet, USB3, USB-C, HDMI). I just make sure I eject the TimeMachine drive when I pick up the laptop to work elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamic_Notes Posted May 2, 2021 Share Posted May 2, 2021 @triplets thanks for the link. Spent a lot of time looking at OWC site. @enossified - the SSD that has a partition for TM and the other for projects is 1TB. The HDD I'm thinking of getting will be 2TB, that is if I can still get a mains powered unit. Anyway I'm rethinking things and depending on other things I may dispense with the partition idea and just have it dedicated to TM. @facej I dont have it nowadays but CCC was always a great piece of software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbmtrx Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 I just encountered an odd behavior with Logic 10.5.1 and found this thread. When Logic is open, and I try to backup an open/saved project file from one external SSD to another, the Finder gets hung on the Copy dialog. In 10.2 this did not happen. When I close Logic and copy the file, it works. Both SSDs are AFPS. Apple must have changed something in what open Logic projects are using in terms of resources. That's the only explanation I can think of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
des99 Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 Do not copy a project file while it is open in Logic and in an unknown state - Logic could have all kinds of file handles and cached writes going on to the various files inside the package - that's a bad idea that's asking for trouble, imo. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbmtrx Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 I hear ya but I've actually been doing this forever and never had a problem...until I updated to 10.5.1. Maybe that's their safeguard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triplets Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 1 hour ago, cbmtrx said: I hear ya but I've actually been doing this forever You got lucky you didn't get project corruptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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