Burn Witch Burn Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 I've been reading that many plugins that emulate hardware units recommend a starting volume level of -18 dB (or 0 dB on a calibrated VU meter). Considering changing to this in order to get maximum fidelity from plugins. I interpret the above info in the following way. Tell me if I am wrong. (using a lot of Waves and native Logic plugins). Get every fader in the session hitting around -18 dB (I don't have a VU meter). Use gain plug in. Hit each Aux Bus at -18 dB including subgroups. Have all the submixes hitting the 2bus at -18 dB. Processs that to taste (keeping unity gain) and the last plugin is Waves NLS Buss (analog console channel emulation). I trim the output up to between -9 and -6 dB. Then I do the mastering limiter (if required) or export to mastering. Any pros out there want to tell me if this is correct or not? Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 Don't believe everything you read on the internet! First, the large majority of plug-ins out there process the audio signal exactly the same way whether the audio signal is -48 dBFS, -18 dBFS or -1 dBFS. Now for the very few plug-ins that sound different depending on the input signal, you'll want to adjust the level of the input signal to get the desired sound, just like we used to do with analog gear. One producer may prefer the more neutral sound they get when using a lower signal while another will push the input stages a bit more to get that desired colored saturation that is unique to the specific piece of equipment. So it's best to make that decision with your ears, only when dealing with that specific equipment, and depending on the equipment used and its specific application. A compressor may give you a type of distortion that's very welcome on a snare drum but completely unwanted on your lead vocals. So best to dial in each plug-in as desired than to base your entire workflow around what may or may not happen and that you may or may not like anyway. Finally, even for those plug-ins that you'll determine give you a better result when your average level is -18 dBFS (if any), setting your levels with the meters on the channel strips won't help, because that's not necessarily the levels of the audio signal at the input of the plug-in. You would have to carefully monitor the audio level of the signal before each individual plug-in. But that's unnecessary anyway. A simple no-nonsense gain staging workflow I suggest is: 1. Make sure the audio you record never hits 0 dBFS. 2. Make sure the software instruments you use never produce a signal above 0 dBFS. 3. Make sure any Audio FX plug-in you insert anywhere in your Mixer doesn't affect the gain too much. You should be able to turn any individual plug-in on/off and not see/hear any big jump in level. 4. As you build up your mix, make sure the level on your Stereo Out channel strip never reaches 0 dBFS until you start adding mastering plug-ins such as a limiter last in the chain on the Stereo Out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burn Witch Burn Posted May 17, 2021 Author Share Posted May 17, 2021 Hey, thanks for the fast response. I should have mentioned that in Logic, I am using Pre-Fader Metering. No, I don't believe everything on the internet, that's why I came to this forum. I've only set up one mix session this way and it changed the balance, so that is a disadvantage. I'm already doing the things you mention. I usually track and output at -10dBFS or far lower for transient heavy things like drums. I maintain unity gain through all plugins in order to not be fooled by volume. I read the manuals of plugins for things like optimal input level. I'm always on the lookout to learn and improve my techniques and question what I already know. It was worth it to ask the question just to hear the answer. It confirms how I've been doing things. If anyone wants to chime in with a differing opinion I would be interested to hear it. Thanks David. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewbarnhart Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 I've been reading that many plugins that emulate hardware units recommend a starting volume level of -18 dB (or 0 dB on a calibrated VU meter).Considering changing to this in order to get maximum fidelity from plugins. I interpret the above info in the following way. Tell me if I am wrong. (using a lot of Waves and native Logic plugins). Get every fader in the session hitting around -18 dB (I don't have a VU meter). Use gain plug in. Hit each Aux Bus at -18 dB including subgroups. Have all the submixes hitting the 2bus at -18 dB. Processs that to taste (keeping unity gain) and the last plugin is Waves NLS Buss (analog console channel emulation). I trim the output up to between -9 and -6 dB. Then I do the mastering limiter (if required) or export to mastering. Any pros out there want to tell me if this is correct or not? Thank you. David's response covers everything you really need to know. My $0.02: The "-18" level being referenced is -18 dB RMS -- if I'm not mistaken, Logic's mixer faders, by default, show peak values. Use the Level Meter or Multi Meter plugins for this. I personally use this workflow because: I'm old and come from the analog world where this is how you did things working at these levels ensures good results when interfacing with analog equipment, and, most importantly working with consistent RMS levels helps achieve consistent results. (Bob Katz's K System is a good reference for this workflow if you want to dig deeper.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burn Witch Burn Posted May 17, 2021 Author Share Posted May 17, 2021 David's response covers everything you really need to know. My $0.02: The "-18" level being referenced is -18 dB RMS -- if I'm not mistaken, Logic's mixer faders, by default, show peak values. Use the Level Meter or Multi Meter plugins for this. I personally use this workflow because: I'm old and come from the analog world where this is how you did things working at these levels ensures good results when interfacing with analog equipment, and, most importantly working with consistent RMS levels helps achieve consistent results. (Bob Katz's K System is a good reference for this workflow if you want to dig deeper.) Hi Matthew, thanks for the response. I am curious to see if looking at a VU meter would help my mixing. Perhaps I'd compress less since the needle would move less than the meters I'm used to (default in Logic). In any case, I need more knowledge in this area. I can give RMS a shot. I'll have to experiment, but, do you know a setting in one of the available Logic meters that would react the way a VU meter would? Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewbarnhart Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 I have been mixing with VU meters for nearly three decades, and continue to use one even working in the box since that’s what I’m used to. I’m not in front of my Logic system now but perhaps the Compressor can do this? I personally use Klanghelm’s VUMT plugin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burn Witch Burn Posted May 17, 2021 Author Share Posted May 17, 2021 I have been mixing with VU meters for nearly three decades, and continue to use one even working in the box since that’s what I’m used to. I’m not in front of my Logic system now but perhaps the Compressor can do this? I personally use Klanghelm’s VUMT plugin. Hi. I've never heard of substituting a compressor for a VU meter. I'll search that. Yes, I've heard of the Klanghelm one. I may get that one. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 Substitute a compressor for a VU meter??? The former is a dynamic processor which reduces the dynamic of your audio signal whereas the latter is a meter which doesn't affect the signal at all. I'm not sure I follow you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewbarnhart Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 Sorry!! I was typing from my phone and meant to elaborate: I wasn’t suggesting applying compression, just using the Compressor’s VU meter in input mode, it it’s possible to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzfilth Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 If you want a meter that reacts similar to a VU, then use a Loudness meter in Momentary mode. I'm not sure though if this immediately enables you to 'mix better' unless you're calibrated to how a VU reacts or what it tells you through years if practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burn Witch Burn Posted May 17, 2021 Author Share Posted May 17, 2021 If you want a meter that reacts similar to a VU, then use a Loudness meter in Momentary mode. I'm not sure though if this immediately enables you to 'mix better' unless you're calibrated to how a VU reacts or what it tells you through years if practice. Hi, thanks for the tip. The Logic native loudness meter doesn't have any mode options, unfortunately. The reason to experiment w VU meters was not only to calibrate around -18 dBFS, but to see if the visual of a VU meter might have a psychological effect on the amount of compression I reach for. I use my ears, but the meters are an influence. I wonder what effect using the VU meters might have. Never done it. Therefore I'm curious. Thank you for your opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markno999 Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 My two cents after using the -18 to -12db "best practice" for many years. Forget about it. Much of the vibe of classic music we all like comes from slamming into hardware, not clipping but slamming it. Many, if not most, VST plugs modeling the hardware operate in the same manner as their hardware counterparts so that much of the attitude and harmonic distortion happens by hitting things harder. If you look at many pro mixers in the box sessions from PureMix, Mix With the Masters, etc.. many of them are sometimes peaking a channel at close to 0 dBFS. David has given some very sound advice. The only thing I would add is that I will typically get the tracks going how I like them, but not exceeding 0 dBFS, and the send all tracks or busses to a Submix Bus so I can pull down to around -6Db before hitting the Master. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzfilth Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 The Logic native loudness meter doesn't have any mode options, unfortunately. The bar that says M shows the momentary value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burn Witch Burn Posted May 17, 2021 Author Share Posted May 17, 2021 Forget about it. Yes, what you say is the way I've been doing it. I was just wondering if I had overlooked a good practice. I'm usually leaving plenty of headroom on output and only slamming compressors if I want color, like an 1176 emulation etc. (even then maintaining unity gain). Thanks for taking the time to write. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burn Witch Burn Posted May 17, 2021 Author Share Posted May 17, 2021 The bar that says M shows the momentary value. Excellent. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewbarnhart Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 Sorry!! I was typing from my phone and meant to elaborate: I wasn’t suggesting applying compression, just using the Compressor’s VU meter in input mode, it it’s possible to do that. I finally got home from a long day, opened up Logic, and realized the Logic compressor's VU meter only does gain reduction -- not input or output level -- so my suggestion won't work at all. So sorry for the distraction! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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