EXS24 "save" confusion

Since day one, I've always found it very confusing how the whole "save" and "save as" inside EXS24 works.

Sometimes we include the Sampler Instruments and Samples folders inside the project, sometimes we don't; if we select "Save" it modifies the original .exs, but then we have "Save As..." and also the "Export Sampler Instruments and Sample Files..."

As much as I understand that having different options to different situations is good, I think it's a bit (a lot) confusing and here's why:

Today I was spending as much time as possible trying to understand what really happens in each scenario, because I want to stop importing all .exs files and samples into my projects, because it slows down my workflow, it increases the size of each folder and I also wanted to understand what happens if I change a particular .exs file.

Here are the different scenarios and what happens. Some of them don't make much sense to me and you will understand why:

1 - Opening and changing a Factory exs

The Save option is greyed out. Makes sense, because those are supposed to be "untouchable". Ok with that.

So then we use the Save As and 2 things can happen:

1 - If you save it with the exact same name as the original (e.g. Grand Piano) , but in a different location (e.g. your project's folder), it will save the .exs file inside that new location, BUT the EXS24 doesn't link that instance of the EXS24 to that new .exs file.

2 - If you change the name (maybe you add "+++" to the end, so Grand Piano +++), then it will save the file inside that new location (as in number 1), but this time the EXS24 now links to that new file AND it adds this new folder to the EXS2 menu called "External". This can be changed if you have a Sampler Instruments folder already inside the project's folder and save the .exs file inside, or you can manually create that folder.

Then we have another option which is hitting CMD+S to save the project itself (without going to the Edit Window's Save As) and what that does is that it saves the file with its original name inside the project's folder BUT it now lives inside the Sampler Instruments folder inside the project's folder and it points to it, using a new EXS24 menu folder with the project's name.

Are you confused yet??? Wait for it hahaha

So that's what happens with the Factory (locked) content.

When we have User content, things get a bit messier!

2 - Opening and changing a User exs

Option 1: Save

It just saves any modifications to the original file in its original location. So far so good. Pretty obvious. This can be a problem, if we wanted to leave the original .exs untouched, so gotta be careful. I think we could have an option to ask us if we wanted to save it, to avoid accidental saves.

Option 2.1: Save As... (using the exact same name as the original .exs file)

- Saves the new .exs file into the project's folder

- Still points to the original location (weird)

- Changes the original .exs file in its original location (super weird!!!)

- Doesn't add that "External" folder inside the EXS24 menu

Option 2.1: Save As... (using a different name than the original .exs file)

- Saves the new .exs file into the project's folder

- Points to the new location inside the project's folder (now we're talking)

- Doesn't change the original .exs file in its original location (now we are REALLY talking)

- Adds that "External" folder inside the EXS24 menu. The only issue with this approach is that it creates new External folders for EACH instrument saved, instead of grouping them.

So, it seems that the only option to not f*** up any file is to always use Save As and then give it a different name, even if it's by adding just "+" at the end.

Option 3: Save the Logic project without doing anything inside the Edit window inside the EXS24

- Creates Sampler Instruments folder (if there's none yet) and adds the .exs file, even if it's the same name as the original

- Create the Samples folder, but doesn't copy the samples, so it still points to the samples in their original location, which is what I want, so it doesn't get messy

- Creates sub menu inside the EXS24 with the name of the project (above the Sampler Instruments folder) and adds the .exs file name, so it groups everything there, if you have more than 1 .exs file, unlike the External folder which adds one per instrument saved

- Doesn't change the original .exs file, which is how it was supposed to be, unlike option 2.1

- Even though I can still play the samples on my keyboard, when I go to the Edit window, every time I hit a note it adds that orange circle with the ! next to each sample's name and I get this window that says "The file nameOfTheEXSHere doesn't exist"

Are you tired of all of these options and different behaviors? Well, I am... it twists my brain, because if you change your .exs and by accident hit Save (to save the project) instead of using the "Save As" inside the Edit window, you have already created a problem and now have to go back and add extra steps to the process to fix it.

On the other hand, if you hit Save As and you forget to change the name to something different than the original, you have now changed the original .exs file and that means that other projects using that same file, will now be affected as well.

So yes, thank you Apple for creating something that makes us be on our toes all the time when we make changes to a user's .exs file...

We have nothing else to think about, right? haha

My own conclusion and best practice, either for Factory or User content:

1 - Always use the Save As option instead of the Save or even saving your project

2 - Always change the name of the new .exs to make it unique, even if it's by adding a + sign at the end

3 - Always create a "Sampler Instruments" inside your project's folder (if you don't have one already) and save all your new unique .exs files inside

Anyway, I hope this helps other people understand how this works, and how it can be applied to them, in case they don't want to include all the Sampler Instruments and Samples inside each project.

Yes, it's always been a confusing implemention, imo.

(I haven't gone through your findings above in detail, but I'm pretty familiar with the EXS's foibles...)

When editing a sampler instrument in Logic, you really want to save it to disk, and then reload it into the EXS24 from that disk file, for predictable behaviour.

Note that this behaviour may apply to the EXS24, but it's *not* the same for EXS24's replacement, Sampler.

With Sampler, they have done quite a few changes to improve this behaviour, and as a result it's much more straightforward and dependable - you don't need to save independent sample instruments files at all now, you can just tweak and save your Logic project, and everything will remain intact without an extra sampler instrument file required.

Yes, it's always been a confusing implemention, imo.

 

(I haven't gone through your findings above in detail, but I'm pretty familiar with the EXS's foibles...)

 

When editing a sampler instrument in Logic, you really want to save it to disk, and then reload it into the EXS24 from that disk file, for predictable behaviour.

 

Note that this behaviour may apply to the EXS24, but it's *not* the same for EXS24's replacement, Sampler.

 

With Sampler, they have done quite a few changes to improve this behaviour, and as a result it's much more straightforward and dependable - you don't need to save independent sample instruments files at all now, you can just tweak and save your Logic project, and everything will remain intact without an extra sampler instrument file required.

Yes, I know my post is very long and detailed and hopefully will serve more as a way for others to understand it if they are struggling with it as well, without doing all the tests themselves

I've added an update to my post, right at the end as how I think we should save the files for most compatibility in both Factory and User content.

I just wanted a single workflow for both so I don't have to think differently based on it being Factory or User, you know?

I think when 10.5 came out, I noticed on some YouTube videos that the Sampler is indeed different when it comes to that, which is awesome. I don't know when I will be able to start using it, because my Mac can't update to Mojave

Using the Sampler and the new Loops feature would indeed speed up my workflow! Oh well...

I think we should save the files for most compatibility in both Factory and User content.

No, you should absolutely not save user content within Factory content. It's separated like this for good reasons.

I just wanted a single workflow for both so I don't have to think differently based on it being Factory or User, you know?

You don't have to think differently about this. Your factory and user content comes up in Logic in the expected places, and you always save your user content to the user area, so it can be backed up easily, doesn't interfere with factory content and Logic's installation/cataloging of such and so on.

But saying "if I save duplicate copies of my stuff to the factory stuff that's somehow better" and it rally isn't. You're just confusing yourself with multiple copies of stuff sprinkled everywhere, and you'll end up not having a clue what content is what.

- Factory content is for factory content. It can easily be deleted, reinstalled, and not backed up because it can always be re-installed. It can be shared across multiple users.

- User library content - your own material you want to use across multiple projects should go in your user content areas. You can back this up, without having to redundantly back up the factory stuff. Each user can have their own user content just for them, and still access the global factory content too.

- Project specific content goes in your project (and with Sampler, this happens automatically anyway now) and optionally any other user/factory content you've used so that project has all of it's assets contained within it, so it can be loaded whatever the state of the system it's being used on.

This is what you should be doing - any thoughts about trying to do something different is overthinking a problem that's already been designed for good, specific, reasons.

Having said that., if you really want to put "My awesome synth oboe" instrument and samples in 27 different places across your system, that's up to you. But this stuff becomes a mess to manage and store very quickly and you'll wish for just one, simple, consistent approach, which is the one emApple designed for this purpose.

I think we should save the files for most compatibility in both Factory and User content.

 

No, you should absolutely not save user content within Factory content. It's separated like this for good reasons.

 

I just wanted a single workflow for both so I don't have to think differently based on it being Factory or User, you know?

 

You don't have to think differently about this. Your factory and user content comes up in Logic in the expected places, and you always save your user content to the user area, so it can be backed up easily, doesn't interfere with factory content and Logic's installation/cataloging of such and so on.

 

But saying "if I save duplicate copies of my stuff to the factory stuff that's somehow better" and it rally isn't. You're just confusing yourself with multiple copies of stuff sprinkled everywhere, and you'll end up not having a clue what content is what.

 

- Factory content is for factory content. It can easily be deleted, reinstalled, and not backed up because it can always be re-installed. It can be shared across multiple users.

 

- User library content - your own material you want to use across multiple projects should go in your user content areas. You can back this up, without having to redundantly back up the factory stuff. Each user can have their own user content just for them, and still access the global factory content too.

 

- Project specific content goes in your project (and with Sampler, this happens automatically anyway now) and optionally any other user/factory content you've used so that project has all of it's assets contained within it, so it can be loaded whatever the state of the system it's being used on.

 

This is what you should be doing - any thoughts about trying to do something different is overthinking a problem that's already been designed for good, specific, reasons.

 

Having said that., if you really want to put "My awesome synth oboe" instrument and samples in 27 different places across your system, that's up to you. But this stuff becomes a mess to manage and store very quickly and you'll wish for just one, simple, consistent approach, which is the one emApple designed for this purpose.

I think you are misunderstanding what I mean with my post.

It's not about adding User content to the Factory folder. Maybe it's better if you indeed read my full post and you will understand what I mean

But basically what I mean is that I don't want to include the Sampler Instruments and Samples as a default inside my project's folder. So by unchecking that option, everything reads from their original location (so what you were saying about me saving 27 files in different locations, is actually not applicable to me, because that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid).

My post is about saving modified files, whether they are originally from the Factory content or my own User content. Maybe at one point I want to change the panning of a certain sample (regardless of it being Factory or User). So when that happens, that's when I need to understand how to properly save the new .exs file inside my project's folder so I can only have 1 workflow that works for both Factory and User original .exs (as you can read on my long post, it behaves differently, depending on what option you pick).

So that's what I mean by having a single workflow. And for now it is to:

1 - Always use the Save As option (because saving the Logic project behaves different based on Factory vs User content)

2 - Always give it a different name compared to the original file (Grand Piano becomes, for example, Gran Piano Modified)

3 - Always save the new .exs file inside a Sampler Instruments folder inside the project's folder (depending on what happened before that, it can be there already or not, and if not, create it).

This is the only workflow that will output the exact same behavior, regardless of Factory or User .exs files being modified.

I think you are misunderstanding what I mean with my post.

It's not about adding User content to the Factory folder. Maybe it's better if you indeed read my full post and you will understand what I mean

Yes, I re-read your comment and I think I misinterpreted what you were saying, my bad.

No problem, it's still useful info...

Regarding saving sampler instruments in project vs user. The new Sampler *never* saves EXS instruments in the project folder any more, and even more dangerously for those who do this, cleaning the project *will delete them*, so if you're only saving files like this, you could lose them when you go to 10.5 and beyond, so be careful.

As I say above - custom instruments that are part of your personal library, and you want to use in new projects, should be saved as user content. Stuff that's unique only to one particular project, you can store within the project file that needs them.

I think you are misunderstanding what I mean with my post.

It's not about adding User content to the Factory folder. Maybe it's better if you indeed read my full post and you will understand what I mean

 

Yes, I re-read your comment and I think I misinterpreted what you were saying, my bad.

 

No problem, it's still useful info...