Jump to content

Controlling multiple instances of expression with a MIDI controller


amusong

Recommended Posts

Fellow musicians,

 

I expect the answer to this question is NO but it is worth asking as it will make something good possible if the answer is yes.

 

THE PROJECT:

I have 12 instances of Cinematic Studio Strings, each instrument on a separate track. Trying to produce an orchestral mix. I am new to this have only recently purchased a number of CS libraries.

 

THE ISSUE:

My thinking is that to produce the most realistic performance/mix it would be better to primarily control expression rather than volume. This is how it happens in real life. The musician makes the instrument louder or softer by playing it harder or softer. Doing so alters volume, but it also alters timbre. The CS libraries make a fair job of representing this. This change in timbre is important to the sound of the overall orchestral mix. So my idea is to set the volume fader at unity gain and mix using expression. It may be later that some trim is required on volume faders but I would like to manage the raw sound using expression. Expression is found on CC1 in CS instruments.

 

THE MISSION:

I want to play and mix the track, using multiple faders managing expression for multiple tracks at the same time. I understand that it's difficult to get it all right in one pass, but I had thought that using relative/trim automation I could gradually refine the mix over several passes. I am prepared to buy a new MIDI controller if necessary.

 

PROGRESS TO DATE:

I have an Akai MPK25 which has no faders but 12 assignable rotary encoders. Thought I would try this first. CSS is a Kontakt instrument and I have had no success this morning assigning MIDI controllers within Kontakt (the right click just does not pull up the Learn option). But, I found that, for example on Track 1, I could use the smart controller to control expression by clicking on the relevant knob in MIDI Learn. I can also set up control for volume by clicking on the volume fader on the track. BUT........I can only do this for a single track, Track 1. If I then try to move onto Track 2 and set up similar automation for either expression or volume, it simply will not let me do it - I can only control a single track and must re-assign the control link. Then Track 2 will work but Track 1 is no longer controlled by the MPK25.

 

I conclude from this that I cannot do what I want to do, i.e. mix expression levels simultaneously for multiple instances of CSS instrument, using the MPK 25.

 

MY QUESTION:

Is it possible at all for me to do what I want to do?

I am prepared to buy another MIDI controller, one of the ones with 8 faders. I am aware of the existence of 2 broad classes of MIDI controller.


  • I hope I have understood these types of MIDI controllers correctly - it is all a bit confusing.

 

Any advice on this question would be appreciated, as well as any suggestions for an appropriate MIDI controller. I am aware of the JL Cooper and the Softube Console 1 - would prefer to avoid that level of expense if possible.

 

THE PRIMARY QUESTION RESTATED FOR CLARITY

Can I simultaneously control expression in real time for at least 8 instances of CSS within Logic X?

 

A SECONDARY QUESTION

I am assuming that if I buy a MIDI controller that is suitable for controlling and automating expression with 8+ faders, that I will also later be able to use the same controller to control volume on my channel strips? I hope that is correct?

 

Thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it's possible.

In a single Kontakt instance, you could set it to hold different CS (?) instruments, each assigned to its discrete MIDI channel.

Thus, a single Kontakt plugin being instantiated on a single Logic channel strip, could provide a solution to your controller re-assignment issue.

Another eventual approach might be to use a Summing Stack...

 

Be aware that the trim and relative automation modes work only on Volume, Pan and Sends.

There might be workaround to that by converting recorded volume automation to CC1 (or CC11) by mean of a MIDI Fx (Modifier) to explore...

 

Your current rotary encoder controller should be able to do the work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Atlas007

 

I am wondering if I use a single instance of Kontakt as you have suggested how then get this to play the different Midi regions? I have a different performance for each instrument on each track, and each performance will need to have its own instance of Kontakt I imagine. Or can you address multiple different regions with the one instance of Kontakt?

 

I had not realised that trim and relative automation modes only worked on volume, pan and sends. That won't work then. But I still would like to work with multiple channels of expression simultaneously.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

... Expression is found on CC1 in CS instruments....

So why not use the modwheel on your MPK25 which should send cc1 by default ?

Creating a summing track stack for the tracks and record the cc1 on the main stack track would be the easiest way to effect all tracks...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep....that's the problem. I am hoping that I can set it up so that each fader on a midi controller will control expression for a single instance of CSS, i.e. each instance on a separate channel strip/track, so that I can mix them all in real time.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok...so far, after reading David's article and doing a bit more research online.....it seems to me that the "auto-demix by channel" is mainly or using different midi controllers, eg three different keyboards or the like. My mission is not that...I want to use a single midi controller with, say, 8 faders and make each fader control CC1 on a different track using a different instance of CSS. I had hoped this would be as simple as using Logic's MIDI learn but I can see that it isn't.

 

I must confess that this may be beyond me. I do not know how to use the Midi Environment.

 

I am very confused about using different Midi channels. At present each instance of Kontakt is set to channel 1, so I guess I would have to set each instance up on a different channel to start with (I can probably manage that). So if I can do that then, assuming I use the MPK25, I am guessing I would have to do two things..

1. Set up each knob of the MPK25 to send CC1 to a different Midi channel ( presume this is possible), then...

2. Each instance of CSS, being on its own Midi channel, will then automatically receive CC1 data from its own knob on the MPK25.

 

Would that work?

 

To be honest, if it was easy to do what I wanted, I think you would have told me by now. If it is as complicated as I think it is looking, I will probably pass on the idea and just hand edit each track's cc1 data to produce the mix.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok...so far, after reading David's article and doing a bit more research online.....it seems to me that the "auto-demix by channel" is mainly or using different midi controllers, eg three different keyboards or the like. .

No: Logic separates the incoming MIDI data based only on MIDI Channels. It does not matter whether the data comes from the same controller or multiple controllers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Atlas007

 

I am wondering if I use a single instance of Kontakt as you have suggested how then get this to play the different Midi regions?

I have a different performance for each instrument on each track, and each performance will need to have its own instance of Kontakt I imagine. Or can you address multiple different regions with the one instance of Kontakt?

In Logic, many tracks could play the same channelstrip.

IOW, by creating a track for each of the different CS instrument, onto which will sit your regions. And all those tracks will control the same Kontakt instance channelstrip.

To grasp that concept, one has to understand that in Logic, a track is not a channelstrip. Both (track and channelstrip) are distinct independent entities.

A track is a linear container onto which are stored the regions. A channelstrip is holding the plugins (virtual instrument, audio and MIDI FXs, Sends, fader, pan, etc).

A track could be viewed as musical partition (sheet music), while the channelstrip could be viewed as the musician that plays the partition. Both are linked but are not necessarily bound forever to each other.

 

 

 

I had not realised that trim and relative automation modes only worked on volume, pan and sends. That won't work then. But I still would like to work with multiple channels of expression simultaneously.
As I mentioned, you could try working around that limitation by using a Modifier MIDI Fx plugin... Or perhaps (if I understand well) via the Environment as hinted by David.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

...

To be honest, if it was easy to do what I wanted, I think you would have told me by now. If it is as complicated as I think it is looking, I will probably pass on the idea and just hand edit each track's cc1 data to produce the mix.

................................... :?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, I thank you for your help gents. Atlas007 your post about the difference between midi tracks and channel strips got my attention.....it made me realise that I do not really understand very well how MIDI works in Logic at all....I need to go back and do some fundamental learning on this topic. My lack of understanding may also lead me to use incorrect terms which means my posts are not properly focussed and may be a bit hard for you to understand. (In other words I basically don't know what I am talking about!)

 

It is possible that I have failed to make clear that each CS track is a separate instrument in this sense......within the CS Stings I have chosen different patches for 1st Violins, 2nd Violins, Violas, Cellos and Basses, each on a different track. I have also used CS Brass, with Trumpets and Horns, and anticipate using CS Woodwinds as well. So I think of these as completely separate instruments on separate tracks. My dream was to sit back and just control CC1, and write automation, on each of these tracks simultaneously as I play the project. It may be a foolish dream or not.....you are hinting that I can do it somehow... so I will keep dreaming for the moment.

 

But I think I need to go away and do some fundamental reading on how Midi works in Logic so I can better state my problem and understand your answers. From all that you offered I have a feeling there is a way to do what I want, but I guess my understanding of Midi is so shallow that I cannot yet fully understand what you are saying.

 

Keep up the great interactions on this forum you guys, I really do appreciate the help I get and have leaned heaps over the years. I am going to go away and think now, but as a former Governor of California said.....I'll be back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I have made some progress. I set up a dummy project with four tracks and a CS instrument on each track to play round with.

 

I have managed to set up the Akai MPK25 so that each track has its own unique expression knob, as you suggested JakobP. I can now alter expression for each track individually, by two different methods, either by using the Midi Modifier as suggested by Atlas007, or by assigning the CS expression parameter directly to one of knob's CC's, from within the Kontakt patch. So far so good. Both methods work.

 

But....even though I can get each instrument to change expression in the way I expect, and even though each instrument has its own CC for expression, it only works on the selected track. If I select another track then, although that new track works fine, moving the knob for one of the remaining tracks (including the just deselected one) does nothing.

 

I tried selecting all tracks simultaneously but this did not improve things. Take a look at the attached image. Track 1 is the "focussed track" and works as intended. The others do not. If I select things differently and one of the other tracks becomes focussed, then that track works but no other.

 

I have tried everything I can think of to highlight the other track's numbers but may be barking up the wrong tree.

 

Do I have to set each knob to a different Midi channel and have each instrument on the corresponding Midi channel?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...

But....even though I can get each instrument to change expression in the way I expect, and even though each instrument has its own CC for expression, it only works on the selected track. If I select another track then, although that new track works fine, moving the knob for one of the remaining tracks (including the just deselected one) does nothing.

As previously suggested, try packing your tracks into a Summing Stack, then select the master track of the Summing stack to start using your controller.

 

...I tried selecting all tracks simultaneously but this did not improve things. Take a look at the attached image. Track 1 is the "focussed track" and works as intended. The others do not. If I select things differently and one of the other tracks becomes focussed, then that track works but no other.
There is no attached image in your post...

 

...Do I have to set each knob to a different Midi channel and have each instrument on the corresponding Midi channel?
Yes, as well.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Guys,

 

Tried the "all record armed" and checking the "auto demix by channel" and I can still only get one instrument to respond to the knobs at a time. It's getting a little late here so I will experiment with setting up separate midi channels for each instrument tomorrow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Today I set up a dummy project with 4 tracks and tried all of the suggestions that you have made above. Each track had a different CS instrument on it as follows, Track 1 Violins, Track 2 Cellos, Track 3 Flutes, Track 4 Tuba. I then did a little performance for each track. You can see this project in the Attachment 1.

 

1429521847_Attachment1.thumb.png.6d57efdeba984a922135f0e764d7ab75.png

 

EXPERIMENT #1

Set up the MPK25 to send as follows. K1 (=knob #1) = Midi channel 1and CC102, K2 = Ch2 and CC103, K3 = Ch3 and CC104, K4 =Ch4 and CC105

Set up Logic and Kontakt as follows:

Track 1 set to Midi channel 1, Kontakt instance of CS violins, set to midi channel 1, assignment for Velocity Cross Fade (CS term for "expression", set to CC1 by default) set to CC 102

Track 2, Ch2, CS Cellos, Ch 2, VCF CC103

Track 3, Ch3, CS Flutes, Ch 3, VCF CC104

Track 4, Ch4, CS Tuba, Ch 4, VCF CC105

You can see the 4 Kontakt instruments set out, with their channel and CC assignments in Attachment 2

 

1013053596_Attachment2.thumb.png.84b881cfe95b6e955bc44e46aad60ac6.png

 

Result

When Track 1 was highlighted, K1 successfully drove the mod wheel in Kontakt and altered the expressed sound for that track. But none of the other tracks worked as intended (no movement of the mod wheel when the relevant knob was moved). However, once Track 2 was highlighted K1 no longer worked for Track 1, BUT K2 now worked for Track 2. And so on......the assignments worked successfully but only one track at a time

 

EXPERIMENT 2

I set up another project to explore multitimbral instruments. Following the procedure exactly as set out in David's post, making sure to check the "auto-demix" box, I added a multi-timbral instrument with 4 parts. I then tried to set up different tracks on different channels and to assign the MPK25 knobs.

 

Result

You can't set up multiple instances of Kontakt in a multi-timbral instrument. There is no access to separate tracks to set up new instances of Kontakt. As far as I could see, this multi-timbral instrument can accept input for different tracks on different midi channels, but you can only play the one Kontakt instrument, the one that appears on the channel strip. Since I only had one Midi keyboard connected it, I could only play the one performance which was identical for each track. See Attachment 3 - that shows identical sound on each channel. I toyed with the idea of setting up a "multi" in Kontakt but figured that would not work the way I seek either.

 

1801293893_Attachment3.thumb.png.f452a75fe94d36491a1ed904a22453b6.png

 

So I have tried as much as possible to follow up on your suggestions but have not cracked the problem yet. Let me know if you have any other ideas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is a separate post on what I am trying to achieve. Perhaps I have not made that clear enough yet.

 

Today, as well as the above-mentioned experiments, I did a lot of reading. You can see on Attachment 1 above, to the right of the screenshot on my desktop, the entire three manuals for Logic downloaded from the Apple. It's thousands of pages long and I have printed out certain sections of today, including the full Glossary, so I could study them properly and make sure I knew what some of the terms meant. I just want you to know that I respect your input..... I have gone to this much effort for that reason.

 

What I want to achieve may be possible or it may not, but I would very much like to do it. I know I am in the right place on this forum to have the best chance.

 

Take a look at Attachment 4 below.

 

831283165_Attachment4.thumb.png.46c6e30495861ccfcd86cdd5590fe64c.png

 

This is the project I am working on. I have already invested a lot in the performance of the various parts, I have never done anything like this and it was already very difficult to put all the parts down. I would very much like to mix this using expression as the primary controller of loudness (rather than simple volume) for reasons that I have explained in my first post. However, this expression will have to be added "after the performance". I have tried doing this instrument by instrument but the sound is so complex and large that a change to one part is very hard to hear. My thinking is that if I can mix this piece using handfuls of fader controllers, each fader controlling expression on one of the instruments, I will get the most realistic possible outcome. You may or may not agree with that idea but that is what I want to try.

 

So to do that I want to set up a midi controller with 8 faders, probably in 2 or 3 easily switchable banks, so that I can add expression to many tracks at the same time, in real time, while listening to the project play.

 

So to that end what I specifically want is as follows:

Track 1, expression controlled by fader 1

Track 2, expression controlled by fader 2

etc etc

Track 8, expression controlled by fader 8

Track 9, expression controlled by fader 1 , bank 2

etc etc

 

I am willing to go the extra mile, and even to buy the necessary Midi controller, to achieve this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Holy Dooly Batman.....that worked! Thank you.

 

I have no idea why it should. It's hard to know precisely what bit of advice to listen to sometimes, and this one of yours slipped through the cracks. I guess I got there in the end and thanks for the reminder.

 

So I guess this means that I will need to fold all of the tracks I want to use in this way up into the one summing track stack. I can't think of any downside to that....can you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Holy Dooly Batman.....that worked! Thank you.

 

I have no idea why it should. It's hard to know precisely what bit of advice to listen to sometimes, and this one of yours slipped through the cracks. I guess I got there in the end and thanks for the reminder.

It works because a summing stack routes the MIDI from the main track to all the subtracks, without needing to R-enable each one of them. It's another way to achieve the same result, if you don't mind having the tracks contained within a summing stack folder — which has its own set of pros and cons.

 

Normally R-enabling each track should achieve the same, so I'm not sure why that didn't work for you. But at least you've found a solution that does! Good to hear. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...