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Best workflow for recording automation of expression/dynamics with a fader controller


wing

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I have a Korg NanoKontrol2 and recently started using Logic. I'm a bit confused how to get it set up so I can "ride" the faders while playing my other midi controller (NI S49), specifically for writing in automation such as expression/dynamics. Basically I do a lot of orchestral programming and I use several Kontakt libraries such as Spitfire and others. For strings it's nice to write the dynamics in while playing – you can see the Spitfire crew doing this in a lot of their videos (and many of them use Logic too). But I haven't had luck setting this up correctly.

 

I tried setting automation to touch or latch and moving it while playing, and nothing is written. Then I clicked on the automation options and saw something like 'record automation while playing' which actually sort of worked, but then when I went to tweak it later, I noticed I could not find where the automation lanes are stored. It's not under the instrument's expression or dynamics lanes, weirdly.

 

Of course I could always play first and write it in later which has worked fine, but I like to be able to do it while playing when I can, and tweak after if I need to. And I'd like to make it so that's also the default behavior with any new track! Thank you.

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There’s a lot of posts here covering exactly this, I can’t dig them out right now but a few searches should turn up all the info you need - if you can’t find them, post back and I’ll try to find them for you.

 

You’re misunderstanding the difference between recording MIDI data in the sequencer, versus recording automation data with the automation system, which is something different. I recommend you stick to recording MIDI ccs as any other normal MIDI data, and use those docs to control Kontakt - many orchestral Kontakt instruments, including the Spitfire stuff are intended and set up for this by default.

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I tried setting automation to touch or latch and moving it while playing, and nothing is written.

Expression is not automation, it is a standard MIDI CC event, you record it like you would record MIDI notes, press Record and move the sliders/knobs/faders on your MIDI controller.

 

Of course I could always play first and write it in later which has worked fine, but I like to be able to do it while playing when I can, and tweak after if I need to. And I'd like to make it so that's also the default behavior with any new track! Thank you.

That should be the default behavior. Press Record, play notes while you're moving the slider and both the notes and the MIDI CC will be recorded, you can then go back and edit either in your MIDI editor of choice (Piano Roll, Score editor...).

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That should be the default behavior. Press Record, play notes while you're moving the slider and both the notes and the MIDI CC will be recorded, you can then go back and edit either in your MIDI editor of choice (Piano Roll, Score editor...).

 

Ah ok, after doing some tests I see what you mean now. It does work that way and is accessible under the "region" automation beneath the piano roll when I hit the 'a' key.

 

Not meaning to split hairs over semantics but isn't automation in the context of a DAW simply moving or "animating" a value of any parameter through time? Not sure why it would matter whether it's Midi or audio... at least in previous DAWs I've used (Ableton and Pro Tools) the data for expression/dynamics in these tools were found in the automation lanes alongside volume etc. So that's where my mind is coming from. Not knocking Logic at all– I actually really love it for composing thus far! Just confused why that's mentally separated since in actual practice it's kind of the same concept: move a parameter through time.

 

My main confusion stems from the fact that, with the case of my Spitfire plugins, there are two available "track automation lanes" available, which appear to do the same thing, but they are not 'recorded' when I send midi CC data. It might make more sense with some screengrabs.

 

This one is visible under 'Smart Controls' -

 

Dk1cqqa.png

 

And this one is under the actual plugin's so-called automatable parameter list (so not under the region/midi CC list) -

 

lxsQZ76.png

 

So wouldn't it make logical sense that the midi data I write while playing show up in one of these respective lanes? Since they share the same exact names and parameters... but thing is, they don't, and hence my confusion around this whole thing! Thanks for your responses.

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Not meaning to split hairs over semantics but isn't automation in the context of a DAW simply moving or "animating" a value of any parameter through time?

 

It's confusing a bit for a number of reasons due to Apple trying to streamline some things in the interface, but no, the "sequencer" functionality and automation system are fundamentally different (though they can appear superficially similar in some contexts).

 

The sequencer records incoming MIDI data when "recording" in Logic (notes, CCs etc) into Regions, which are played back on a track and routed to whatever MIDI destination they have. You can route MIDI data to various devices, plugins, and learn this MIDI data to plugin controls in plugins that support that MIDI learn feature.

 

The automation system records *changes to Logic's interface - the mixer, plugins etc* but not when the sequencer is recording - the automation system has it's own read/write modes which are independent of the sequencer. This automation data is not MIDI data, and it is not recorded into regions, but "invisibly" into the tracks themselves. Automation in general is never dealing with MIDI data.

 

* Region automation is the main area where this functionality is confusing, largely for historical reasons which I don't want to write a treatise on right now. Let's just skip over that for now. We can come back to this afterwards...

 

So the two systems are quite different, but it is easy to get confused about this, especially when someone isn't quite strong on the fundamental concepts.

 

For example, let's look at the case where in Kontakt, you MIDI learn a MIDI CC to a "dynamics" control in a Kontakt library. This is MIDI, so you'd be using the sequencer, *not* the automation system. Incoming MIDI CC goes through the sequencer, to the selected track (and can be recorded), out to Kontakt, and Kontakt receives the MIDI CC and changes the dynamics parameter. All these changes, as MIDI, would be recorded using Logic's "record" mode in the sequencer into regions.

 

The *alternative* approach would be to use the automation system, *instead* of the sequencer/MIDI section. To do this, in Kontakt we'd map our "dynamics" parameter to a host automation control, so it could be controlled by the DAWs automation. Then we would use the Controller Assignments window to "learn" a MIDI CC to that automation parameter.

 

Now, what happens is, when that MIDI CC is played from your controller, it comes into Logic, matches a controller assignment, and is *stolen* from the sequencer, so it never reaches the sequencer part of Logic. That MIDI CC will not be recorded into a region in the sequencer, and will be completely filtered out - Logic's sequencer will never even see that MIDI CC. Instead, that CC is now directly linked to that Kontakt *automation parameter*, so that when you change the MIDI CC, the resultant control in Kontakt is moved *directly*. It is the movement of this control, exactly like when you manipulate the Kontakt GUI with a mouse, that generates automation events. So, in automation write/touch/latch mode during playback, you send your MIDI CC, it affects the control in the plugin, and the movement of that control in the plugin generates automation data (not MIDI data) which is recorded by the automation system.

 

Hopefully that should give you an overview of the two independent systems, and why you couldn't *record* your controller assignment into a region.

 

If you want to record and manipulate MIDI, you use the sequencer. if you want to automate the mixer and plugins, use the automation system. You can think of it in hardware terms - the sequencer would be playing the synths, drum machines etc and recording/playing back your performances, whereas the automation system would not be the sequencer, it would be in the mixing desk, recording/playing back mixer changes independently of (but in sync with) the sequencer.

 

Hope that helps.

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Wow, that was an incredibly helpful explanation! Thank you for taking the time to break it down. It's much more clear to me now and that makes a lot more sense from a technical standpoint.

 

From a creative workflow standpoint, I do at least wish the "region automation" data were available in the track automation lanes, just so it's more consolidated and easier mentally for me to access and cycle through. However I understand better based on your information why it works this way.

 

I think in this way it would make sense to keep things while playing/recording in the sequencer / midi CC system, and any track-based editing of plugins I do after the fact in the automation system. The thing that can get tricky sometimes is when you open an old project and you hear something happening but you can't find the 'automation' as you cycle through because they are hidden in a different system!

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Wow, that was an incredibly helpful explanation! Thank you for taking the time to break it down. It's much more clear to me now and that makes a lot more sense from a technical standpoint.

 

Great! I have done this before, because we've done exactly these posts previously, including my long winded explanations - this Kontakt expression MIDI vs automation thing comes up quite a bit as it's a fairly popular workflow for composers etc.

 

From a creative workflow standpoint, I do at least wish the "region automation" data were available in the track automation lanes, just so it's more consolidated and easier mentally for me to access and cycle through. However I understand better based on your information why it works this way.

 

Basically, before "Region-Based Automation", Logic had a MIDI edit concept called "Hyper Draw". This let you edit the MIDI data in regions graphically in a similar way to how the automation lanes are edited. The fact that the Hyper Draw feature and automation edit features were entirely separate helped re-enforce the concepts.

 

However, in an attempt to streamline/simplify and remove old terminology, when they implemented Region-Based Automation (automation data - not MIDI data - in regions), they also moved the old MIDI editing Hyper Draw feature into this same interface. So now you have the one edit interface - under "Region-Based Automation" - that has an interface to edit *both* automation data in regions, *and* MIDI data in regions. So one the one hand, people don't have to think about it too much, but on the other hand, the separate concepts become muddled and confused and people now want to start recording and editing MIDI data in track automation and other craziness. Anyway, the quirks of our DAWs are ours to enjoy! :D

 

I think in this way it would make sense to keep things while playing/recording in the sequencer / midi CC system, and any track-based editing of plugins I do after the fact in the automation system. The thing that can get tricky sometimes is when you open an old project and you hear something happening but you can't find the 'automation' as you cycle through because they are hidden in a different system!

 

I would recommend using MIDI/sequencing for realtime expression control. This is because you are recording a performance along with the notes, and probably want to edit/move/arrange it along with the notes, and there is some funkiness with Region-Based Automation (ie you can't record RBA *into* a region if the region hasn't been created yet, which is what's happening when you record notes - the region only appears *after* you stop recording).

 

Also, for things like the Spitfire libraries, they should be already set up to respond to MIDI CCs for expression/dynamics etc out of the box, without you having to do anything. For other libraries, use Kontakt's MIDI learn and keep things consistent. And you can edit using the MIDI editing part of the Region-Based Automation interface to edit it - and it keeps it separate from mixer automation when you want to ride the levels during the mix etc, using Track-based Automation.

 

That's my tip for this workflow anyway - you are of course free to do otherwise! ;)

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Thanks so much! Yes it's a bit convoluted but this has been helpful getting my head around it. Also after doing more research I noticed I can switch to view 'region' automation lanes on the track arrangement area, so directly on the regions themselves, and cycle through them that way. In some way that's what I was mostly looking for – though I am still curious why there are track automation lanes for these elements too (such as Dynamics/Expression/etc). I suppose that could come in handy to edit separately later from the Midi CC-based recorded data, maybe if you wanted to do a dynamic swell or something across multiple regions perhaps?
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Also after doing more research I noticed I can switch to view 'region' automation lanes on the track arrangement area, so directly on the regions themselves, and cycle through them that way.

 

Yes, that's the Region-Based Automation I was referring to.

 

In some way that's what I was mostly looking for – though I am still curious why there are track automation lanes for these elements too (such as Dynamics/Expression/etc). I suppose that could come in handy to edit separately later from the Midi CC-based recorded data, maybe if you wanted to do a dynamic swell or something across multiple regions perhaps?

 

Like I say, the Region-based Automation interface lets you graphically edit *both* region automation data, *and* recorded MIDI data in the regions.

 

Try not to get confused between Track-Based Automation and RBA. RBA data moves with regions, TBA is relative to the track as a whole and independent of region data.

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Right I understand that totally. I guess what I'm confused about is in what case would I use, say, 'Dynamics' from Midi CC or RBA, vs. the 'Dynamics' on the TBA. This list here:

 

Dk1cqqa.png

 

That's what I was after in the beginning, mostly the Expression and Dynamic controls. Now I understand how to record them in using Midi CC and accessing via the RBA view as discussed. So in what instance would you opt to use the list above which is TBA? As I suggested perhaps a dynamic swell across regions I guess? It's the redundancy of automation lanes that has me confused about that.

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You've got smart controls setup on that track, and smart controls are automatable just like any other GUI parameter in Logic, like mixer controls, pan, bypasses, plugin controls. That list shows available automation parameters that everything on that track exposes to Logic, so you can automate what you want.

 

I don't use, or like, smart controls in general, but if you've set up smart controls and want to automate those, you can do it that way - using the automation system (or, as discussed above, learn an incoming MIDI CC to those smart controls.

 

But in general I would do it the way I've already advised to do it, not using the automation system.

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Ok, I appreciate you clearing that up. Having the two systems and multiple labels for lanes that are the same parameter but in fact different lanes is a bit confusing but your explanation has helped so much. After running a few tests I definitely agree with your suggested system and will stick with that moving forward. Thanks again!
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