mclight Posted September 15, 2021 Share Posted September 15, 2021 I'm using various templates for my productions and one of them is setting up most instruments with multi outputs. Lately I experienced audible latency when starting a new project with this template. I compared it to my other templates and it turned out that this latency is caused by the drummer track in multi output. Other instruments with multi output (eg. Break Tweaker) don't create this problem and the latency is gone as soon as I remove the multi-out drummer track. I can recreate the problem when starting a new completely empty project, add an instrument (eg Piano from the stock sampler) and then adding a drummer track and change it to multi output. Stereo output is fine (no latency) - multi output on drummer track adds latency. Any suggestions? I definitely need multi outputs for proper mixing ... thx for your help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
des99 Posted September 15, 2021 Share Posted September 15, 2021 Are you sure there aren't latency-inducing plugins on the drummer track? Multi-outputs don't add latency, neither does Drummer, but some audio plugins do of course. In your multi-output drummer track, as a test, remove all plugins on that drummer channel and all aux channels handling the Drummer outputs, and you should find the latency goes away - *if* it's caused by plugins on your drum channels. if that doesn't work, try uploading here a test project which has that latency problem, and we can have a look at it... Additional note - latency shouldn't even be much of a problem when *mixing*, as it's compensated for - how exactly is extra latency affecting you while mixing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclight Posted September 16, 2021 Author Share Posted September 16, 2021 Thx for your thoughts on this, des99! I'll investigate the points you've mentioned. I don't think there are latency inducing plugins on my out tracks. For sure there are no new ones as I haven't changed my template and I'm using this one since quite some time (5 years perhaps?). Of course it's updated and optimized now and then, but I haven't done any changes to the drummer track and its multi out channels. And yes - of course it's no issue regarding mixing. But for the projects I usually do (less then 50 tracks) I don't even have to increase the IO-buffer from my 128 recording setting to be able to mix with my setup without any hiccups. Latency was never an issue ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclight Posted September 16, 2021 Author Share Posted September 16, 2021 Ok, did some more testing: - it seems to have to do with drummer track (both, stereo or multi output) - when engaging the low latency button the latency is gone - without low latency engaged latency is audible once you play some notes on your keyboard AND Logic is playing (= latency is not necessarily happening when Logic sequencer is stopped) I've attache a screenshot showing the mixer page. You can see that there is not one single audio plug in on the drummer track or the multi outs (well, of course "Drum Kit" is on the main track). Moreover I've attached the Logic project. Once you've loaded it make sure Low Latency button is NOT engaged, hit play and play some notes on your controller keyboard using the very first track (Piano sound from stock sampler). You should hear and feel the latency (it's quite bad - too bad for recording with a medium tempo). Once you press Low Latency button the latency is gone. If you stop the sequencer, disengage Low Latency and play the latency will still be gone. But once you hit play again and play on your keyboard without Low Latency button engaged it's back. Link to Logic demo file (it's stored on my Tresorit cloud drive, after following the link click "Open" and then "Download All" - that will create a ZIP file and start the download; after unzipping you'll have the logicx file): https://web.tresorit.com/l/mTSmf#RWVRIX0a1JmExJOn6zHc1w Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
des99 Posted September 16, 2021 Share Posted September 16, 2021 - when engaging the low latency button the latency is gone Ok, that's telling you that it's a plugin causing the latency. I'll have a look at your file in a bit... (btw you should generally zip the logic project before uploading, as uploading a package isn't necessarily guaranteed to preserve the contents as packages are pseudo-folders and a Mac thing in general). Edit: Once you've loaded it make sure Low Latency button is NOT engaged, hit play and play some notes on your controller keyboard using the very first track (Piano sound from stock sampler). You should hear and feel the latency (it's quite bad - too bad for recording with a medium tempo). Hmm... I didn't get any latency in this case, the piano (and the drum kit) plays fine after I loaded the project with no noticeable latency. The Low latency button didn't make any difference, neither did stopping or playing the project. My buffer size is 128 - what's yours? Also, check your latency compensation setting is at "All"... Edit2: I think I can see what you mean - there is a weird bit of latency *sometimes* (not always) when engaging playback right at the start of the cycle - it takes a while for Logic to react to the notes, and then it settles down a bit. Weird... I'm having a look to see if I can find something to influence that behaviour... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclight Posted September 17, 2021 Author Share Posted September 17, 2021 Again thx Des99 for taking the time to investigate this issue. I've spent now another 2 hours on testing and narrowed it down. To eliminate any problems caused by my setup I performed these tests with a minimal setup: MacBook Pro + Korg microKEY Air connected via USB. So there's no audio interface, no external drives - just Logic + a small controller keyboard. I've recorded a simple 4 bar midi sequence consisting of quarter notes and varied the circumstances: - start with a new empty project - start with my template without drummer - start with my template with drummer - switch low latency on off You can see the latency results when comparing the midi events displayed in my screenshots. Of course my timing is not as perfect as 100% quantized, but you can clearly see the latency as all the affected midi events are about 1/32 delayed. It happens only with my templates (which used to work for years and I haven't changed it in any way prior to these latency issues) and only when I have a drummer track in these templates (either already there in the template or added to it after starting with my template). As soon as I turn on Low Latency Mode it's gone (although not one single audio plugin is bypassed - I believe bypassed plugins are marked somehow like greyed out or so if bypassed via low latency mode, but all my plugins look like always on the mixer page even when LL mode is engaged - see screenshot). Tests/Screenshots: New Project Before After Drummer: no latency happens when adding a drummer track to a new empty project Template Multi Out LL Off On: this was my starting point when first encountering this problem. My multi out template with a drummer track already set up. As soon as you play the sequencer or record the latency happens. When turning on Low Latency Mode it is gone. When removing the drummer track it is gone. Template Single Out Before After Drummer: When starting with a template without Drummer in it there's no latency. As soon as I add a drummer track I've got the latency and it's clearly visible in the midi events (about 1/32 delay at 120 bpm). Template Single Out Drummer LL Off On: Again the template without Drummer and adding it afterwards - when switching Low Latency Mode on the 1/32 latency is gone. Template Single Mixer LL On: Mixer page with all audio plug ins visible. I can't see any deactivated plugins when Low Latency Mode is on. Conclusion: this latency issue has something to do with my templates AND a drummer track. Without Drummer my templates behave as they used to = no latency. These templates have been quite some work. But it seems I have to remake them from an empty project ... and hope that I don't get this dummer track issue again. Actually I tend to stop using drummer instead. At least as long as there's no guarantee I don't end up with the same latency issue again after I've rebuilt my templates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakobP Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 A longshot here, but what if you disable input monitoring on the "Mic In" channel strip, or even better, remove Melodyne completely ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclight Posted September 21, 2021 Author Share Posted September 21, 2021 Unfortunately this long shot did not hit the target Seriously, I gave that a try as well (disabling Melodyne, removing plugin completely, disabling input monitors). It's still the same. As soon as I add a drummer track I get this latency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Where is Bus 50 routed to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclight Posted September 21, 2021 Author Share Posted September 21, 2021 Where is Bus 50 routed to? Source = Ghost Kick track for sidechain (ducking) Routed to wherever needed, eg. on my "StDmyLog" track (a standard stereo audio track with Logic stock plugins EQ, Comps and routing for aux reverbs/delays) theres a 2nd compressor at the end of the chain which is setup for ducking with Bus 50 as input signal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 That could be the issue I suppose as Logic has been changing the way it deals with side chain signals and plug-in latency / synchronisation lately. I would try to remove it and see if that helps. As a test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclight Posted September 21, 2021 Author Share Posted September 21, 2021 First: David, you're a genius!! Thx, that was the solution indeed! Second: I still don't get it. Actually I didn't have to remove the Ghost Kick track or the bus. I just had to change the sidechain input in the compressor on this template audio track "StDmyLog" from "Bus 50" to "Intern". As soon as I changed it, the latency was gone. I wasn't aware of this change in Logic and I don't get the benefit of this change either. Do I have to live with latency now as soon as I use sidechain compression? Another thing I don't get is the connection of this sidechain-latency issue to Drummer. I still get this latency only when I've got the Logic drummer in my project. Once I remove drummer the latency is gone even when the sidechain in the compressor (on that completely different audio track StDmyLog!) is still on "Bus 50". And this compressor is switched off in my template too (not blue). Very mysterious ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclight Posted September 21, 2021 Author Share Posted September 21, 2021 PS: Checked Logic release notes and found this: New in Logic Pro 10.6.3 Mixer Resolves delay compensation issues for plug-ins that require look-ahead, and for busses containing plug-ins that are side-chained to tracks. Well, that's exactly what I'm dealing with here - except only when drummer is present somewhere in this project. And "Resolves" seems to be the wrong word in my case. It's more like "Creates delay compensation issues" - I never had this issue until 10.6.3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Great, good to hear that at least, we've identified the culprit! Resolving delay compensation issues with multiple send/bus routings and sidechaining etc.. is a complex matter. What resolves the issue for a specific routing may well break it for another. Here's the looong discussion (12 pages) where this has been reported and experimented with by many Logic users: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckbarlow Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 Thank goodness for this thread... just happened to me. I have a Drummer track. I added a compressor on a synth track and sidechained it to a vocal, and boom... my Drummer got stupid. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamsden Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 I've had this problem as well using side-chain inputs into AU MIDI-controlled plugins such as Helix Native. I solved it by using Ultrabeat instead of Drum Kit Designer on drum tracks. It seems the issue is some interaction between side-chain inputs and the new Logic Pro sampler that replaced EXS24. I get additional latency if the drum track uses Drum Kit Designer and some track has a side-chain input. No side-chain input, no additional latency. Or no Drum Kit Designer, no additional latency. I haven't tried using other samples in the Sampler plugin, but I suspect the problem is in the plugin, not the drum kit samples. Has anyone submitted a defect for this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamsden Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 I just submitted defect FB12000311. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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