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Logic sync issues since 10.6.2


tobyscott1

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Ever since upgrading from 10.6.1, I've had a ton of sync issues in Logic. I've had most of the iterations since. Recently upgrade to Big Sur and now 10.7.2 in the hope that the issues have been sorted, but more and more problems have arisen and none seem to have been fixed. Unfortunately some plugins don't work on 10.6.1 so reverting also not too much of an option.

 

Sync issues are predominantly with Melodyne ARA, and Nicky Romero kickstart, both of which are important to my workflow and sound, I can obviously transmit Melodyne manually but this slows me down, and there are of course alternatives to kickstart, like LFO tool and Waves pumper, and sidechaining manually to the kick, but I prefer the movement of kickstart, personally... When these plugins are engaged in a chain, they induce latency on that channel. Engaging the low latency mode fixes the latency issues on these channels, but sidechain routing on other channels is disturbed, and it's annoying for workflow as selecting software instruments bypasses the master bus plugins, affecting production/mixing flow.

 

Does anyone else have these issues? I'm sure it's not just those 2 plugins that are affected, but they are the most obvious culprits for me - obviously losing trust in the DAWs sync is an absolute headf*ck, when working on so many records for delivery. Tbh I'm not too interested in workarounds that suggest bouncing down plugin chains prior to adding kickstart, I often use kickstart at the end of vocal chains for esp when working on club records, and require full access to dry vox at all times..

 

Latest version of Logic has a load of other new issues I'll save for another time haha

 

Thanks so much for any replies!

 

Toby

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  • 7 months later...
  • 3 months later...

I am also having very similar issues. I just upgraded to an m1 mac and with it Logic 10.7.5 (from 10.5.1). Having the exact same issues with Melodyne ARA and Nicky Romero Kickstart from what I've noticed. I even exported the audio from my old Mac and compared to the new Mac on the exact same project and the sidechaining in Kickstart is noticeably off. As you mention I can use other plugins but it is very annoying to have to redo old projects and I do really like the simplicity of Kickstart... Here I thought upgrading would increase workflow not make things harder. 

Has anyone had any solutions to correct these sync issues? 

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Finally someone! Sorry I can't be of much help though. I have the same problem on 4 computers, and so can be certain it's not just my system... My solution is I'm still using Logic 10.6.1 on all my computers, luckily this still works with my M1 Mac on big sur. Kickstart (or any other similar plugins that do the same thing, like LFO tool, shaperbox etc) go out of time when after latency-inducing plugins on a channel. On 10.6.1 and before this happens if on a bus, but not on a channel. Melodyne manual works ok but ARA goes out of sync... Annoying as I'd like to upgrade to the latest logic for the new features

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So it all seems to be related to the Plugin Delay Compensation in Logic. I found this other long thread that describes the issues many people are having. I also did exactly what you are and reverted back to 10.6.1 and seems to be working.

I agree, would love to take advantage of the new features in 10.7.5 but can't upgrade with these issue. I noticed they happen immediately if you have Kickstart or any of those synced volume shaper plugins and also another plugin sidechained to anything. I can have just those 2 plugins (which shouldn't be too much latency) on a track and the volume shaper gets out of sync as soon as I activate a sidechain on the other plugin. Very frustrating.

 

 

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  • 1 month later...
On 12/6/2022 at 11:49 AM, NateVanDeusen said:

I noticed they happen immediately if you have Kickstart or any of those synced volume shaper plugins and also another plugin sidechained to anything.

On 12/5/2022 at 5:10 PM, tobyscott1 said:

Kickstart (or any other similar plugins that do the same thing, like LFO tool, shaperbox etc) go out of time when after latency-inducing plugins on a channel. On 10.6.1 and before this happens if on a bus, but not on a channel.

 

Unfortunately, this behavior still seems to occur in 10.7.6.

Here's what I'm seeing. A tempo/beat-synced plugin like ShaperBox or Step FX will work correctly on e.g. an instrument channel, even if there are high-latency plugins on the same channel. However, if you add sidechaining elsewhere in the project, the synced plugin is no longer compensated properly and the timing is now off. Separately from that, if the synced plugin is on an aux channel, adding a high-latency plugin to that same aux channel will cause the timing to be off. This seems to closely match the behavior described above.

There are many threads here and elsewhere about this and other timing issues in Logic, and I've been through many of them looking for solutions. I gather many users are unaffected by these issues, but they can be a real obstacle for those working in certain genres or using certain common production techniques.

For ShaperBox, you can put it on an instrument channel and sync it via MIDI, which addresses the timing issue, but there are significant drawbacks to this approach. In any case, I've yet to find effective solutions to these issues.

 

 

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Thanks for the update! I was considering updating to 10.7.6 to see if they'd fixed it... Think I'll stick to 10.6.1 still in that case - sync via midi is an option as you say, but it's a bit longer and a bit of a workflow-disrupter...

I do sometimes wonder if there's any way of actually reaching Apple to tell them about this, rather than just sending a complaint into the ether, I do have a business account so maybe I'll try that avenue 

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4 hours ago, tobyscott1 said:

I do sometimes wonder if there's any way of actually reaching Apple to tell them about this, rather than just sending a complaint into the ether, I do have a business account so maybe I'll try that avenue 

 

I sent a bug report. On one previous occasion when I sent a report, I did get to talk to an actual person because they contacted me to ask for an example project (which I offered this time as well). So, maybe that'll happen this time.

Otherwise though, it's more or less into the ether, as you say (unless you can find some other way to get through, as you mentioned).

 

 

 

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Just now, scg said:

Otherwise though, it's more or less into the ether, as you say (unless you can find some other way to get through, as you mentioned).

That really is the best way to contact them, and it does reach them and they do read it (as you've experienced) however they can't possibly respond to all the feedback reports so it feels a bit odd to send your report and then never hear back again, I agree - but they do read those and take them seriously. 

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11 hours ago, scg said:

For ShaperBox, you can put it on an instrument channel and sync it via MIDI, which addresses the timing issue, but there are significant drawbacks to this approach. In any case, I've yet to find effective solutions to these issues.

what drawbacks? (just curious). i do this all the time (with shaperbox 3, and midi trigger off), so it's sync'd to logic's clock. it's always worked well for me.

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15 minutes ago, fisherking said:

what drawbacks? (just curious). i do this all the time (with shaperbox 3, and midi trigger off), so it's sync'd to logic's clock. it's always worked well for me.

When you say you have MIDI trigger off, do you mean you have ShaperBox on an instrument channel, but have the trigger mode set to 'Sync' rather than 'MIDI' or 'Audio'? (Apologies if I'm not following.)

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5 minutes ago, scg said:

When you say you have MIDI trigger off, do you mean you have ShaperBox on an instrument channel, but have the trigger mode set to 'Sync' rather than 'MIDI' or 'Audio'? (Apologies if I'm not following.)

sorry, was looking at a shaperbox 2 instance; in shaperbox 3, it's set to sync (and works with logic's clock)

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15 minutes ago, fisherking said:

sorry, was looking at a shaperbox 2 instance; in shaperbox 3, it's set to sync (and works with logic's clock)

Sorry if I'm being slow on the uptake here, but are you using ShaperBox as a MIDI-controlled effect in the instrument slot of an instrument channel, or are you using it as an audio-effect plugin?

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34 minutes ago, fisherking said:

audio effect on either audio files or synth plugins; no need for 'midi' in either case (just as eq, compression, reverb are 'audio effects' that you can use on a synth plugin. 'sync' keeps the plugin timed to logic's clock.

 

Oh, ok, we're talking about different things then. I'm talking about using ShaperBox as a MIDI-controlled effect in the instrument slot of an instrument channel. As you may already know, this allows for both MIDI triggering/syncing of LFOs, and also for selecting custom waves using the 'MIDI switch' feature. The latter you can also do via automation, but as far as I know the only way to retrigger an LFO manually is via MIDI control (you could also use audio triggering with a dummy trigger I suppose, although that might be less precise).

In any case, using ShaperBox as an instrument along with MIDI trigger mode is the standard solution for the type of timing problems under discussion here. In fact, it's Cableguys' official suggested solution for Ableton's version of this problem (I haven't seen Cableguys address it with respect to Logic specifically).

If you're using ShaperBox as an audio effect and not having timing issues, then my guess is you're just not hitting the problem cases. (Either that or you've found a solution to the problem, in which case I want to know what it is!)

 

 

 

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i use trackspacer a lot (for basslines, being trigger by the audio of the kick drum track).

i guess if you're writing specific midi patterns for these devices... you need midi. am only working with audio sources and logic's clock. so always as an effect, never an instrument. and, in my case, there are no sync issues...

Edited by fisherking
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10 minutes ago, fisherking said:

i guess if you're writing specific midi patterns for these devices... you need midi. am only working with audio sources and logic's clock. so always as an effect, never an instrument. and, in my case, there are no sync issues...

 

It doesn't matter if you're only working with audio sources - it can still manifest. All I can say is, if you're not hitting the problem cases, I envy you!

In any case, it is a thing, certainly in Ableton (given that it's addressed directly in the Cableguys FAQ), and seemingly in Logic as well. For what it's worth, one can put together a trivial project in just a few minutes that demonstrates the issue. Of course I always leave open the possibility of user error on my part, but the problem has been discussed by others on this forum and elsewhere. (For example, one of the problem cases is item #2 on this list.)

 

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23 minutes ago, scg said:

It doesn't matter if you're only working with audio sources - it can still manifest. All I can say is, if you're not hitting the problem cases, I envy you!

In any case, it is a thing, certainly in Ableton (given that it's addressed directly in the Cableguys FAQ), and seemingly in Logic as well. For what it's worth, one can put together a trivial project in just a few minutes that demonstrates the issue. Of course I always leave open the possibility of user error on my part, but the problem has been discussed by others on this forum and elsewhere. (For example, one of the problem cases is item #2 on this list.)

i've never had any issues using shaperbox (or trackspacer, or audiothing's 'phase motion'). and i use thse things a lot (and again, with synth or drum plugins). not sure why (but am not complaining)

edit: i also use output's movement (which requires a playthrough once first before i can bounce a track), and some other sync-based plugins. but they're always as track inserts, not sent to auxes or run on summing stacks...

Edited by fisherking
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I think it depends on what specific plugins you have in your chain prior to the kickstart/shaperbox/lfo tool etc. Without triggering via midi, i.e. just using the clock, the audio is not latent but the pumping effect is out of time (across all my computers when in 10.6.2 and beyond). This process is pretty fundamental to dance music production and it's a faff creating a midi track to trigger the pump, although tbh probably necessary for me to move on. 10.6.1 has recently become quite unstable for some reason so looks like I'll have to

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11 minutes ago, tobyscott1 said:

I think it depends on what specific plugins you have in your chain prior to the kickstart/shaperbox/lfo tool etc. Without triggering via midi, i.e. just using the clock, the audio is not latent but the pumping effect is out of time (across all my computers when in 10.6.2 and beyond). This process is pretty fundamental to dance music production and it's a faff creating a midi track to trigger the pump, although tbh probably necessary for me to move on. 10.6.1 has recently become quite unstable for some reason so looks like I'll have to

i generally use plugins like shaperbox after eq & compression (both fabfilter); would not try it after, for example, any izotope plugins. anyway, not sure why it's always worked for me (thru various OSes & logic versions) and not others....

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41 minutes ago, tobyscott1 said:

I think it depends on what specific plugins you have in your chain prior to the kickstart/shaperbox/lfo tool etc.

There may be multiple variables involved, but for what it's worth, under certain circumstances I can reproduce the issue by adding a high-latency plugin anywhere in the project - it doesn't necessarily even have to be on the same channel as the ShaperBox instance.

Quote

This process is pretty fundamental to dance music production and it's a faff creating a midi track to trigger the pump, although tbh probably necessary for me to move on.

Yeah, creating a separate instrument track for each ShaperBox instance is seeming increasingly impractical to me. I'm continuing to dig for solutions and will post anything I find, but I'm not too optimistic at this point.

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28 minutes ago, scg said:

There may be multiple variables involved, but for what it's worth, under certain circumstances I can reproduce the issue by adding a high-latency plugin anywhere in the project - it doesn't necessarily even have to be on the same channel as the ShaperBox instance.

Yeah, creating a separate instrument track for each ShaperBox instance is seeming increasingly impractical to me. I'm continuing to dig for solutions and will post anything I find, but I'm not too optimistic at this point.

Thanks that's much appreciated! Likewise if I find anything... and you're right, a high-latency plugin elsewhere in the project also seems to cause it for me too. Out of interest, do you also use UAD (hardware) plugs? Just in case it's connected....

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One more post on this, which I hope won't be unwelcome. I did some more research, and it seems fairly clear that the only solutions to this problem in Logic are the ones already known (along with their various disadvantages), such as using MIDI triggering for ShaperBox.

In case anyone would like to take a look at this themselves (which would be great, as I'd be curious to know if others can reproduce it, or if there are solutions I'm missing), I've attached a project demonstrating the issue. (This is the first time I've uploaded a project here, so I hope it works.)

In order to observe the behavior, you'll need Settings->Audio->General->Plug-in Latency->Compensation set to "All".

The project demonstrates the behavior using Step FX and a simple quarter-note gating pattern that should align exactly with the metronome. The project alternative named "Correct timing" demonstrates the correct behavior. The alternative named "Incorrect timing - Step FX on aux track" puts the Step FX instance on an aux track along with a high-latency plugin (Vocal Transformer), causing clear misalignment between Step FX and the metronome. The alternative named "Incorrect timing - sidechaining in project" demonstrates the same behavior, but in this case caused by there being sidechaining elsewhere in the project.

In any case, at the moment at least it doesn't look like there are any particularly good solutions to this problem.

 

 

step_fx_timing_demo.logicx.zip

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here, the first note comes in a little late, on the FIRST play only. moving the region to measure 2 and looping it works fine.

the 'incorrect timing' alternates ARE a mess. i guess it matters that i only use sync-based effects (outside of sync-based delays) on the track where i want it.

Edited by fisherking
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6 minutes ago, fisherking said:

here, the first note comes in a little late, on the FIRST play only. moving the region to measure 2 and looping it works fine.

the 'incorrect timing' alternate IS a mess. i guess it matter's that i only use sync based effects (outside of sync-based delays) on the track where i want it.

 

Thanks for trying it!

Just to make sure I'm 'collecting accurate data', as it were, two questions:

- Do you have plug-in latency compensation set to 'All'? (I know I mentioned it, but it'd be an easy detail to miss.)

- When you say "the first note comes in a little late, on the FIRST play only", is that in reference to the "Correct timing" alternative?

Thanks again for taking the time to check it out.

 

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55 minutes ago, scg said:

Thanks for trying it!

Just to make sure I'm 'collecting accurate data', as it were, two questions:

- Do you have plug-in latency compensation set to 'All'? (I know I mentioned it, but it'd be an easy detail to miss.)

- When you say "the first note comes in a little late, on the FIRST play only", is that in reference to the "Correct timing" alternative?

Thanks again for taking the time to check it out.

yes, and yes. the 2 alternatives were depressing tho; i never experienced this as, again, i've only used such plugins on specific tracks. but i've used numerous instances of shaperbox (for example) and no issues. so it seems workable on individual tracks...

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  • 3 months later...

Can't believe this is still an issue.
For anyone interested in reporting this to Apple, here's some text you can copy and send to them.

 

Logic Pro version: 10.7.7

The Plug-in Delay Compensation is incorrect when Plug-in Latency is set to "All". 

Please see this example project: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ndhbhh621hswdcj/PDC_bug_example.logicx?dl=1

1. Set Logic Pro Settings > Audio > General > Plug-in Latency > All
2. Start the playback 

Note how the ducking sound is out of sync with the metronome. 

And here's a workaround: 

1. Set Logic Pro Settings > Audio > General > Plug-in Latency > Audio and Software Instrument Tracks
2. Start the playback

Now the ducking is in sync with the metronome. 

 

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