guitar486 Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 I have searched all over and can't find an answer to this. It seems like there is no way in Logic to create sends that are pre-fader but post-pan. Is this true? If so, this means I can only have mono headphone sends with pre-fader functionality? Thanks in advance for any responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 there is no way in Logic to create sends that are pre-fader but post-pan. Is this true? No, you can position your sends pre-fader, post-fader, or even post-pan. Just click-hold the send to choose its position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar486 Posted June 13, 2011 Author Share Posted June 13, 2011 Thanks for the fast response. Yes I know you can assign them there, however none of those options are BOTH pre-fader and post-pan, and there are no "send pans" like in Pro Tools, so I'm struggling to understand how I can create an independent headphone mix with pan controls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpingInFire Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 In any mixer, analog or digital, the fader is always before the pan pot. So you are correct that you cannot have a pre-fader and post-pan send. You can use 2 pre-fader sends, 1 for the left cue mix and one for the right cue mix. This is a pain when it comes time to change panning. You could also create a separate aux track for each channel you want to send to the cue mix. For example, say you have a guitar track. Set up a pre-fader send to an aux track. From this aux track set a post-pan send to your cue mix. You can use the aux track for level and pan instead of using the sends from the original channel. This quickly adds to your channel count and can clutter your mixer. Keeping them all together will help and is like having a separate monitor mixer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar486 Posted June 14, 2011 Author Share Posted June 14, 2011 Thanks JumpingInFire. I know there are longer ways to do it, but the way you described is far too complicated and cluttered for me. I can't believe Logic doesn't have a simple way to create independent monitor mixes with panning, hopefully someone can help me out here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Sorry, I read your question too quickly the first time and misread you. Thanks for the fast response. Yes I know you can assign them there, however none of those options are BOTH pre-fader and post-pan Unfortunately what you're requesting would not be possible with Logic's mixer current signal flow, as the panning occurs after the level fader: Track & Audio Channelstrip Flow and there are no "send pans" like in Pro Tools, so I'm struggling to understand how I can create an independent headphone mix with pan controls. I guess you can't... (I've never needed to do that so it never occurred to me) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar486 Posted June 14, 2011 Author Share Posted June 14, 2011 I guess you can't... (I've never needed to do that so it never occurred to me) That's a pretty big bummer. I don't have a desk currently so I was really hoping to be able to do this internally. If there's really no easy way to do this in the mixer or environment then go ahead and mark this as solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpingInFire Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 That's a pretty big bummer. I don't have a desk currently so I was really hoping to be able to do this internally. Most consoles don't have stereo aux sends. Take a good look to make sure you get one that does if it is that important to you. Personally, I've never heard anyone ask for their cue mix in stereo. Even with something like a 1604 or an Aviom system set up they always use it in mono. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Would something like this work? http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=372912#372912 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Would something like this work? http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=372912#372912 That doesn't allow you to have an individual headphone mix with individual pan control, does it? All I see is individual headphone mixes. One reason why I guess this could be useful (although I've never needed it myself) is if, for example, you want to be able to send a stereo headphone mix while being able to tweak your mix during recording and tweak the pan setting of a channel strip without the musician hearing your pan tweaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar486 Posted June 14, 2011 Author Share Posted June 14, 2011 A lot of consoles have stereo Cue outputs, but there's no console in my near future. Shiver, thanks but that won't give me independent monitor mixes. I'll just settle for tracking in another DAW, thanks for the help though everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar486 Posted June 14, 2011 Author Share Posted June 14, 2011 Would something like this work? http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=372912#372912 That doesn't allow you to have an individual headphone mix with individual pan control, does it? All I see is individual headphone mixes. One reason why I guess this could be useful (although I've never needed it myself) is if, for example, you want to be able to send a stereo headphone mix while being able to tweak your mix during recording and tweak the pan setting of a channel strip without the musician hearing your pan tweaking. Beat me to it. And yes, this is exactly why I want them to be independent, but no worries I'll work around it. I just wanted to be absolutely sure I couldn't do it before figuring out my solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Would something like this work? http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=372912#372912 That doesn't allow you to have an individual headphone mix with individual pan control, does it? All I see is individual headphone mixes. One reason why I guess this could be useful (although I've never needed it myself) is if, for example, you want to be able to send a stereo headphone mix while being able to tweak your mix during recording and tweak the pan setting of a channel strip without the musician hearing your pan tweaking. The Environment example does, but it involves more channels. You set up the mix, bang the fader and then adjust the volumes and pans independent of the main mix (the switcher button will disconnect the cables). The presonus firestudio project I have allows for the presonus software to send 4 stereo mixes. Personally, I like the first example using the sends. If the drummer only wants to hear certain parts, he/she/it can adjust accordingly. If the guitar player only wants to hear himself and a wee bit of cowbell, he can make the adjustment. I don't know why some people get sooooo picky over a basic function. I mean, they should be lucky they can get any sort of mix at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 No fair doing what you did The environment example had the Sends cut out so that I could fit most everything in. I should have left them in an resized the pic. Too many things going on that day. I can redo it and post it soon (provided it really does what I thought it did). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Shive', I deleted my post because to be fair I would need to take the time to study your template. Still I don't think you can make multiple volume/pan mixes in Logic short of using multiple Aux channel strips (one for each mix) for every single track in your mix, which is not exactly practical (and you'd probably run out of Auxes before you could accomplish the task anyway). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facepalm Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 It's a bit of a bodge, but if you do your panning with a Direction Mixer in the last insert slot instead of using the Pan-Pot, your pre-fade sends will reflect this panorama, enabling you to create a stereo cue mix. http://i.imgur.com/O73Gt.png Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Shive', I deleted my post because to be fair I would need to take the time to study your template. Still I don't think you can make multiple volume/pan mixes in Logic short of using multiple Aux channel strips (one for each mix) for every single track in your mix, which is not exactly practical (and you'd probably run out of Auxes before you could accomplish the task anyway). The OP wants the ability to send separate mixes, each with total control over Volume and Pan. Will this work for Phil's Harmonic Orchestra? No! Will it work for a basic band? Yes. Each member can set up his/her own personal mix. However, Let's look at what a live band has the capability to do. The mixer board may only have 5 Aux sends (mono) and each of the 5 members can set up an AUX mix containing the channels they wish to hear. In our DAW world, we are limited to the output of our interface ( 8 mono, 4 Stereo) in most cases. In this case, I don't know how many channels are needed, nor do I know how many musicians will need a headset. So with a basic band set up, this is entirely possible using pre-fader sends to a personal mixer made up of Aux channels or even additional Audio channels with the bus inputs. That's over 300 channels for headphone mixes. Come on now ... Even the JamHub or MyMix is limited the same way Logic is limited to an Interface device. 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar486 Posted June 14, 2011 Author Share Posted June 14, 2011 To be clear, I'm not complaining about anything here, just trying to get something done they way I'm used to it. In Pro Tools sends have pans and it's very convenient. Anyhow, I've moved on. Thanks guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 To be clear, I'm not complaining about anything here, just trying to get something done they way I'm used to it. In Pro Tools sends have pans and it's very convenient. Anyhow, I've moved on. Thanks guys No problem. We do this all the time. Just curious to find out how many separate headphone mixes you use and how many channels do you use? Etc ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar486 Posted June 14, 2011 Author Share Posted June 14, 2011 To be clear, I'm not complaining about anything here, just trying to get something done they way I'm used to it. In Pro Tools sends have pans and it's very convenient. Anyhow, I've moved on. Thanks guys No problem. We do this all the time. Just curious to find out how many separate headphone mixes you use and how many channels do you use? Etc ... By the time it gets to vocal tracking we're talking about anywhere from 15-30 tracks which I want individual control over for one headphone mix, but there are also times I need up to 5 headphone mixes. It's not an everyday scenario but it happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
young_marley Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 I have a very similar issue - needing to send things pre-fader AND post-pan, but for the purposes of a mix in Logic, not for headphone cueing. Here's what I'm trying to accomplish: I want to send a multi-tracked group of strings to one reverb and one compressor (to give the effect of "gluing" the strings together and making them sound like they're playing in the same room). Right now I'm doing this by sending them all to one aux, and making the Busses on the individual strips pre-fader (this way I can turn the volume all the way down on the individual track channel strips and only deal with the one aux strip). But, like the OP, I'm running into trouble because I also need the panning of the individual strings to be intact. I'm throwing the harmonies wide left and right and keeping the main melodies centered, it sounds great, and I don't want to lose that effect. As you guys have pointed out, I can only choose between pre-fader and post-pan, not both. The only workaround I can devise is to bounce the track with the panning intact, and then compress / process the track after the fact. But this doesn't seem efficient or useful. Am I missing something? I feel like there's a way to do this. Thanks! M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 I want to send a multi-tracked group of strings to one reverb and one compressor (to give the effect of "gluing" the strings together and making them sound like they're playing in the same room). Right now I'm doing this by sending them all to one aux, and making the Busses on the individual strips pre-fader (this way I can turn the volume all the way down on the individual track channel strips and only deal with the one aux strip). Your routing is wrong. You want to set the OUTPUT of your individual channel strips to the Aux. That aux is now your submix, and you can compress it, send it to another Aux for reverb, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
young_marley Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Thanks David! I figured this out soon after I posted (of course). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Great! And you're welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riaaneloff Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 I have searched all over and can't find an answer to this. It seems like there is no way in Logic to create sends that are pre-fader but post-pan. Is this true? If so, this means I can only have mono headphone sends with pre-fader functionality? Thanks in advance for any responses. Have the same exact issue, and there seems to be NO WAY in Logic Pro X to do this. I am absolutely LIVID!!! Have been using this functionality in my studio with NO PHYSICAL CONSOLE since ....wait for it.....wait for it....not last year, not 5 years ago....SINCE BLOODY 2003!!! That's near on FIFTEEN YEARS!!!! Cubase has this functionality, Ableton has this, Sonar has this and SAWStudio has this. WHY THE $%^&*(*&^% does Logic not have this?!?!? Moved to Mac about a month ago with very high hopes. EXTREMELY frustrated and irritated. SUCH a disappointment from hardware and software that are always praised as the video and audio industry "standard". I have been (QUITE LITERALLY) been dumped 15 years into the past! I want a PREFADE send with the capability to PAN that individually from the control room mix. SO MANY TIMES I solo the current performing artist to check various things, BUT, if I want stereo (a format that's probably 60 years old already) in Logic, I have to use POST FADER - POST PAN, meaning I cannot touch the mix, or solo or anything as such without interfering with what the performer is hearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riaaneloff Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 To be clear, I'm not complaining about anything here, just trying to get something done they way I'm used to it. In Pro Tools sends have pans and it's very convenient. Anyhow, I've moved on. Thanks guys I have to admit...I AM COMPLAINING! Moving from PC to "Mac heaven" just removed one of the most BASIC functionalities of my audio software. Does anyone have any idea how one can actually get functionality like this WITHOUT having to create a send for every individual channel as mentioned in another post? This is truly such a massive, massive disappointment and let-down. To say I am pissed at paying thousands upon thousands of dollars to move to the "industry standard" for video and audio, is an understatement of epic proportions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riaaneloff Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 No problem. We do this all the time. Just curious to find out how many separate headphone mixes you use and how many channels do you use? Etc ... By the time it gets to vocal tracking we're talking about anywhere from 15-30 tracks which I want individual control over for one headphone mix, but there are also times I need up to 5 headphone mixes. It's not an everyday scenario but it happens. I have to agree with you guitar486 - one wants separated control for the headphone mix. In my facility I have three different booths, plus the control room. Thus I need AT LEAST three different headphone mixes, but sometimes a keyboardist is sitting in the control room along with me, so I'd need a fourth mix - WITH SEPARATE CONTROL, since they'll wear a pair of cans too, so that I may muck about in my control room to my hearts' content, without interfering with the performers' mixes. To me the biggest mess with this oversight on te part of Logic is the fact that I've HAD THIS CAPABILITY ON PC for 15 years! I turned to Mac and Logic to IMPROVE my setup, and it hasn't. It has weakened my setup drastically. Sure, I could sell the mac, and loose about 30 - 50 percent of its "new" price, but, I can't sell Logic, I'm screwed and stuck with the software, whether I use it or not. It's a bloody shamefull situation this, I have to admit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnaud Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 @riaaneloff, two options for you: * If what you really are after is a pre-fader and post-pan send, i;e. a send that adopts the exact same panning as the channel, but is not affected by the fader of that channel, then the solution was provided 6 years ago on page 1 of this thread, by Facepalm (see there: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=72286#p373395). Simply insert a Direction Mixer plugin as the last one of that channel, do not use that channel's pan at all (leave it centered), pan that channel from the Direction Mixer instead, and simply set your send to "pre-fader". That send will not be affected by the channel's fader, but will reflect the exact same panning as that channel (as set from the Direction Mixer plugin). I use this quite often. * If what you actually are after is two different, independent pans, one for the channel and one for the send, each with different pan settings (which is not the same story as what you apparently, as well as the OP, ask for, i.e. simply pre-fader+post-pan), then the easiest is to make use of the Aux channels that LPX automatically creates in the Mixer each time you create a send to a new bus: set your send pre-fader, and pan the aux channel at will (btw, if you want to control the mix sent to the headphones from one single place, set the pre-fader send to 0dB and use both the fader and the pan knob of the aux channel to mix and pan the headphones mix). Use a different bus (and therefore a different, automatically created aux, for each send. Yes you have to use another channel (Aux channel) for that, but LPX does create them automatically in your mix (which btw was not the case 6 years agos as far as I remember, when the OP discussion was taking place), and it's very easy to use. If you want things to stay tidy in your mixer (have all these aux channels sitting next to each other, at a specific position in the mixer, hide/show them, have this regroup&hide feature separately for whatever number of separate, different headphone mixes, and even have a separate "headphones mains" level, etc), use the "create track" + "Summing Track Stacks" facilities that LPX offers. the summing aux channel will be the one sent to the physical outs routed to the headphones, and the level fader of tha summing aux serves as a master fader for that headphone mix. I do this quite often too, for my own purposes (not necessarily headphones; this is a good way to easily A/B alternative mixes directly from the same project alternative of LPX, for instance), and it's pretty convenient. One thing is for sure, by moving from one given tool to another, you're bound to have to move to a set of new habits, and for sure there's a learning curve involved. It's somewhat awkward but it happens on many occasions, and LPX power users that move to another tool will just as well be faced with the same sort of situation regarding one of their favorite and well-know feature or another, that is not implemented in the same way in that other tool. PS: please don't YELL at us, we're not responsible of how LPX is designed or how frustrating this learning curve may be, no one of us is Apple, nor LPX's dev team, we're just users here, trying to help each other. Which, btw, I humby hope to achieve here. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riaaneloff Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 @riaaneloff, two options for you: * If what you really are after is a pre-fader and post-pan send, i;e. a send that adopts the exact same panning as the channel, but is not affected by the fader of that channel, then the solution was provided 6 years ago on page 1 of this thread, by Facepalm (see there: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=72286#p373395). Simply insert a Direction Mixer plugin as the last one of that channel, do not use that channel's pan at all (leave it centered), pan that channel from the Direction Mixer instead, and simply set your send to "pre-fader". That send will not be affected by the channel's fader, but will reflect the exact same panning as that channel (as set from the Direction Mixer plugin). I use this quite often. * If what you actually are after is two different, independent pans, one for the channel and one for the send, each with different pan settings (which is not the same story as what you apparently, as well as the OP, ask for, i.e. simply pre-fader+post-pan), then the easiest is to make use of the Aux channels that LPX automatically creates in the Mixer each time you create a send to a new bus: set your send pre-fader, and pan the aux channel at will (btw, if you want to control the mix sent to the headphones from one single place, set the pre-fader send to 0dB and use both the fader and the pan knob of the aux channel to mix and pan the headphones mix). Use a different bus (and therefore a different, automatically created aux, for each send. Yes you have to use another channel (Aux channel) for that, but LPX does create them automatically in your mix (which btw was not the case 6 years agos as far as I remember, when the OP discussion was taking place), and it's very easy to use. If you want things to stay tidy in your mixer (have all these aux channels sitting next to each other, at a specific position in the mixer, hide/show them, have this regroup&hide feature separately for whatever number of separate, different headphone mixes, and even have a separate "headphones mains" level, etc), use the "create track" + "Summing Track Stacks" facilities that LPX offers. the summing aux channel will be the one sent to the physical outs routed to the headphones, and the level fader of tha summing aux serves as a master fader for that headphone mix. I do this quite often too, for my own purposes (not necessarily headphones; this is a good way to easily A/B alternative mixes directly from the same project alternative of LPX, for instance), and it's pretty convenient. One thing is for sure, by moving from one given tool to another, you're bound to have to move to a set of new habits, and for sure there's a learning curve involved. It's somewhat awkward but it happens on many occasions, and LPX power users that move to another tool will just as well be faced with the same sort of situation regarding one of their favorite and well-know feature or another, that is not implemented in the same way in that other tool. PS: please don't YELL at us, we're not responsible of how LPX is designed or how frustrating this learning curve may be, no one of us is Apple, nor LPX's dev team, we're just users here, trying to help each other. Which, btw, I humby hope to achieve here. Cheers. Hi Arnaud, Thanks for info above, will work through all of this tomorrow. Apologies for the yelling....I was ranting about a frustrating situation, rather than aiming my frustration at the group. More a let-off of steam in front of other users rather than AT those fellow users. Again, apologies if I came across as yelling at the group instead of "in front of" the group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnaud Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 No worries Let us know if any of that was usefull to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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