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Hagroth
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Mastering but keeping channels?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:17 am

This is my first master, and since the song is going to be on Rock Band, I'll need to export the different channels separately (bass drum, snare drum, tom 1, guitar 1, guitar 2, bass guitar etc.). So is it possible to keep the channels from the mix, and without doing a mixdown, put the channels through a "semi-master" bus before going to the "stereo output"/"master" bus, so I can add compression, EQ etc. to all channels on the semi-master the same way I would to the mixdown in a regular mastering approach?

Is there any way to make the applied effect on the semi-master bus apply to the different individual instruments the same way, when all channels are bounced, and when only one channel is bounced individually?
E.g., make the semi-master bus inserts affect the guitar channel the same way when bounced together with all the other instruments and when bounced individually?
 
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Eric Cardenas
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Re: Mastering but keeping channels?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:23 am

You can use the side chain for that.
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Hagroth
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Re: Mastering but keeping channels?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:32 am

EricBradley wrote:
You can use the side chain for that.

Could you elaborate, please? :)

To clarify, I was thinking mostly about the compressor - since it acts depending on the volume of the channels that aren't muted, it should respond differently when bouncing all channels and only bouncing one, right? The volume gets higher when all channels are played back, compared to when just one is. So I'm wondering if you could perhaps get around this somehow. Like making the compressor work as if all channels are played back, but still only make one channel audible.

I want to make sure that the result when Rock Band puts the instruments together sounds the same as when all channels are bounced together.
 
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Rev. Juda$ Sleaze
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Re: Mastering but keeping channels?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:54 am

Not sure if it's exactly what Eric was thinking, but you can feed the compressor sidechain with channels set to "No Output", so the compressor will still react to the whole mix, but you won't hear it.
Zappa is not dead, he just smells funny.

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Rev. Juda$ Sleaze
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Re: Mastering but keeping channels?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:06 am

One more thought - you might be better off mastering stems (using sidechain compression between them), and not doing any processing on the main output, that way you can be sure things won't sound different when seperated.
Zappa is not dead, he just smells funny.

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Eric Cardenas
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Re: Mastering but keeping channels?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:34 pm

Hagroth wrote:
Could you elaborate, please? :)



What Rev. said except I wouldn't use sends and no Output on the stems you don't want to hear.
Set the output to the bus that the external side chain is listening to instead!
That way all your levels and automation stay intact.
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Rev. Juda$ Sleaze
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Re: Mastering but keeping channels?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:18 pm

EricBradley wrote:
What Rev. said except I wouldn't use sends and no Output on the stems you don't want to hear.
Set the output to the bus that the external side chain is listening to instead!
That way all your levels and automation stay intact.


I think I meant set the aux channel triggering the sidechain to "No Output", but a I'm confused as to what I meant myself now! :lol:

Post-fader sends will not affect levels and automation.
Zappa is not dead, he just smells funny.

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Eric Cardenas
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Re: Mastering but keeping channels?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:44 pm

Rev. Juda$ Sleaze wrote:

Post-fader sends will not affect levels and automation.


How about panning? ;)
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Re: Mastering but keeping channels?

Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:12 am

Huh? :?

I really feel like I'm missing something now, because if memory serves, you can send pre-pan & fader, post pan but pre-fader, or post-pan & fader.

How is panning affected? I'm going to have to dig out some old stems to try this out on...
Zappa is not dead, he just smells funny.

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Eric Cardenas
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Re: Mastering but keeping channels?

Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:26 am

It was just a little joke... I even tried with the "wink" emoticon.

The different send modes are:

  1. Pre Fader.
  2. Post Fader
  3. Post Pan & Fader

You can achieve the same routing with sends as with you can with output settings.
Using the send requires more mouse clicks: Initiate send, set it to unity, set it to Post pan, set the Channel Strip to no output.
In my opinion it's easier to just set the output to the bus.
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Re: Mastering but keeping channels?

Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:42 am

Oh, ok. Sorry, I just got up :lol:

I still need to work out how you can mute/solo channels at will, keeping all sidechain feeds going, without using sends.

I'm not in a suitable condition to work that out right now though! :lol:
Zappa is not dead, he just smells funny.

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Eric Cardenas
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Re: Mastering but keeping channels?

Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:47 am

Rev. Juda$ Sleaze wrote:
Oh, ok. Sorry, I just got up :lol:


It's kind of too late to wish you a good morning! Where you up gigging yesterday night?

Anyway here's a nice cup of coffee for yah: :D

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Eric Bradley Cardenas
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Hagroth
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Re: Mastering but keeping channels?

Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:03 am

I'm not a very experienced user, and I've never heard of "stems" before, so I searched for it in the manual. Didn't get many hits, and they were all score-related it seemed. It seems like this guy, at 4:35, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlS-qkyT-1M, manages to isolate just the reverb effect and is able to bounce the instruments without reverb, and then bounce just the reverb, which is processed just as if he bounced with the instruments audible. Which is kind of what I want to do, but I want to bounce individual channels with inserts processing them as if all channels were audible. I'm still not sure what stems are, or what you mean by "external side chain". I'd really appreciate if someone could please help me here.

EDIT: I think this is what you meant? Side-chaining a bus? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Prd-LtH9_DE (About 07:45)
 
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shivermetimbers
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Re: Mastering but keeping channels?

Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:00 am

Let me get this straight ...

You are an inexperienced user and you want to go straight to 'Mastering' tracks. :roll:

It sounds as if you simply want to keep the dry tracks separate from the processed tracks?

Right?
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Hagroth
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Re: Mastering but keeping channels?

Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:34 am

shivermetimbers wrote:
You are an inexperienced user and you want to go straight to 'Mastering' tracks. :roll:

It sounds as if you simply want to keep the dry tracks separate from the processed tracks?

Right?

This isn't a normal mastering procedure. Usually you'd export them as a mixdown and master that. If it weren't for the fact that this is going on "Rock Band", I wouldn't need to learn anything about side-chaining, stems etc. for this genre (progressive death/black metal).

No, not exactly. I want to have a few master processors like compressor, limiter etc. and bounce individual channels, BUT keep the processing intact - I want the processors to act as if I was bouncing all channels together.

"Straight to mastering tracks"? No, no, no. I don't see where that came from. I know the theory, and I'm done mixing this song, so I'm going to master it.
 
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Rev. Juda$ Sleaze
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Re: Mastering but keeping channels?

Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:23 am

Tell you what, gimme half the money, I'll do all the work, and you can take all the credit. Good deal? :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_mixing_and_mastering
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camillo jr
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Re: Mastering but keeping channels?

Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:21 pm

Rev. Juda$ Sleaze wrote:
Tell you what, gimme half the money, I'll do all the work, and you can take all the credit. Good deal? :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_mixing_and_mastering


Even better, you do all the work, I'll do all the lurking and we'll all come out ahead..... that is if someone here can post a working model of this! :wink:

I'm intrigued but can't figure it out. I'm getting bogged down with such philosophical questions as how I can both set a track or stem's output to a bus AND set it to "no output". :?

EricBradley wrote:
I wouldn't use sends and no Output on the stems you don't want to hear.
Set the output to the bus that the external side chain is listening to instead!
That way all your levels and automation stay intact.
Logic 9.1.8, MacPro quad core 2.8 GHz, 14 GB RAM, OSX 10.6.8, RME multiface
 
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Re: Mastering but keeping channels?

Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:08 pm

camillo jr wrote:
I'm intrigued but can't figure it out. I'm getting bogged down with such philosophical questions as how I can both set a track or stem's output to a bus AND set it to "no output". :?

EricBradley wrote:
I wouldn't use sends and no Output on the stems you don't want to hear.
Set the output to the bus that the external side chain is listening to instead!
That way all your levels and automation stay intact.


Yeah, that's confusing me. if I get time tomorrow I'll try to figure it out. I could do it with sends though...

Still, kudos to the OP, if you can get paid to figure stuff out as you go along you must be very good at self-promotion.
Zappa is not dead, he just smells funny.

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Hagroth
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Re: Mastering but keeping channels?

Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:26 pm

Rev. Juda$ Sleaze wrote:
camillo jr wrote:
I'm intrigued but can't figure it out. I'm getting bogged down with such philosophical questions as how I can both set a track or stem's output to a bus AND set it to "no output". :?

EricBradley wrote:
I wouldn't use sends and no Output on the stems you don't want to hear.
Set the output to the bus that the external side chain is listening to instead!
That way all your levels and automation stay intact.


Yeah, that's confusing me. if I get time tomorrow I'll try to figure it out. I could do it with sends though...

Still, kudos to the OP, if you can get paid to figure stuff out as you go along you must be very good at self-promotion.

:D

The answer seems to be side-chaining all channels to one bus, and then side-chain that bus into the compressor and limiter etc. I'm using for my master. This way, the volume-dependant master inserts will always process the audio the same way.
Then I can just bounce each channel individually, one at a time, and let the master compressor (which are processing according to the side-chained bus) etc. act on each channel just as they would if all channels would've been bounced together. This is the answer I've come to, but I still don't know if this is what Eric meant, or if it really is the best way to do it.
 
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Rev. Juda$ Sleaze
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Re: Mastering but keeping channels?

Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:30 pm

There's usually a few different ways to go about more complicated routings, so the main thing is you worked out a way to do it!

Hopefully some of this discussion helped you figure it out.
Zappa is not dead, he just smells funny.

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