A technical support community for Apple Logic Pro users.

 
amusong
Topic Author
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:13 am
Location: Australia mostly

Region automation changes not working

Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:17 pm

Hi
I am working with a SWAM cello in Logic X. In playing a region in I did not breath in the right place and the note had a delayed start. I went into the region automation and changed the breath automation so that the note started when I wanted but the sound is unchanged. I further went on to try other automation for vibrato etc and none of them changed the sound either. I shut and restarted the project a few times and made sure that when playing back cursor starts before the region. Nothing I change in the automation, for any parameter, seems to have any effect.

I have attached an image of the project. Look at the note that start at Bar 25. It does not sound until 25.3, near the end of the bar. You can see that I have altered all the automation to give a boost at this time, but nothing changes. The same thing happens with the note at Bar 26.3

This is not the first time this has happened to me, but in the past I have just put up with it or replayed the part. Now I would like to understand and avoid this behaviour.
Any ideas what is causing this?

Thanks in advance
Tony
Attachments
Screen Shot 2021-09-23 at 9.08.25 am.png
Screen Shot 2021-09-23 at 9.08.25 am.png (1.52 MiB) Viewed 933 times
Macbook Pro 2018 Retina WITH 4TB flash drive, Logic Pro X 10.5.1, OSX Mojave 10.14.6, UAD Apollo 8, UAD Apollo Twin, Apogee Duet
TEControl BBC2 breath controller. Monitors - Adam A5's with Adam Sub 7
Various Neumann mics, Shure SM7B, Sennheiser 421, Sennheiser 935 and various Rode mics.
Nord Stage 2, AKAI MPK25 controller, several clawhammer banjos (including a Chuck Lee and an Enoch Dobson), piano accordion.
 
User avatar
Atlas007
Posts: 10195
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:58 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: Region automation changes not working

Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:23 pm

Unclear to me, but would there be a need to set the automation in read mode?
Otherwise if the automation is CC, does the recorded events reaching your SWAM cello via the proper MIDI channel settings (plugin, recorded events, track parameter…)?
LogicPro 10.6.3, MainStage3.5.3
MBPro 17", Core2Duo, 8G, OSX 10.12.6
MacPro, Xeon 6Cores, 64GB, OSX 10.15.7
ULN8, MOTU MIDI TP-AV, C4, MCU Pro, KorgNano, Novation SLMkII
AAS, NI, Celemony, Spectrasonics, Korg, Arturia, etc...
PC, iPadPro 5th gen 12.9”(Duet D., V-Control & LogicRemote), AtariST(Notator SL), Several vintage gear
 
amusong
Topic Author
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:13 am
Location: Australia mostly

Re: Region automation changes not working

Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:17 pm

Thanks Atlas

As you can see from the screen shot that track is already in Read mode. I have just noticed that it is not quite clear that the track shown in the inspector is the same one as in the piano roll....it is the same track as the region.

I guess the proper MIDI channel settings are OK because (before I changed the MIDI automation data) Logic was reading the original data just fine, exactly as I played it. My issue now is that I have changed the MIDI data manually with the pencil tool, but the region still plays as if I have not changed the data at all....i.e. as if it was still the original data. The automation data you see there now is the NEW data that is in fact not being read.

I have had this problem before but never quite figured out what is going on. Normally I would just replay the whole region again, but I have been told by someone "not to change a thing" so I would like to keep this original performance on this occasion and just tidy up some of the expression.

Should also mention that I am using the TEC breath controller for expression on CC2.
Macbook Pro 2018 Retina WITH 4TB flash drive, Logic Pro X 10.5.1, OSX Mojave 10.14.6, UAD Apollo 8, UAD Apollo Twin, Apogee Duet
TEControl BBC2 breath controller. Monitors - Adam A5's with Adam Sub 7
Various Neumann mics, Shure SM7B, Sennheiser 421, Sennheiser 935 and various Rode mics.
Nord Stage 2, AKAI MPK25 controller, several clawhammer banjos (including a Chuck Lee and an Enoch Dobson), piano accordion.
 
User avatar
Atlas007
Posts: 10195
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:58 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: Region automation changes not working

Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:51 pm

The color of your Read button should be green and the letter light green, while in your picture it is currently grey and the letters green.
As mentioned here, the automation "Read" mode button comes in different colors, each meaning :
  • White font on gray button: Automation is disabled on that Track regardless whether there is Automation data on that Track.
  • Green font on gray button: Automation is enabled, but there is no Automation data on that Track (Track Automation or Region Automation)
  • Green font on green button: Automation is enabled and at least one Automation Control Point is present on that Track (Track Automation or Region Automation)

Besides, could you post a screen capture of the Event List editor showing the content of that region?
LogicPro 10.6.3, MainStage3.5.3
MBPro 17", Core2Duo, 8G, OSX 10.12.6
MacPro, Xeon 6Cores, 64GB, OSX 10.15.7
ULN8, MOTU MIDI TP-AV, C4, MCU Pro, KorgNano, Novation SLMkII
AAS, NI, Celemony, Spectrasonics, Korg, Arturia, etc...
PC, iPadPro 5th gen 12.9”(Duet D., V-Control & LogicRemote), AtariST(Notator SL), Several vintage gear
 
amusong
Topic Author
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:13 am
Location: Australia mostly

Re: Region automation changes not working

Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:44 pm

Atlas007

My apologies for not replying sooner - I have been away for a few days.

I was not familiar with the "whole button turning green" thing. I have never seen that happen before and most of my projects do work as intended with automation, but I must admit that I do have stumbles from time to time where this sort of thing happens. Perhaps there are some subtleties about automation that I have yet to learn - I will study the manual more closely.

However on this occasion I was gobsmacked to see that some of my buttons have in fact turned full green. (See image) Not only that I used two cello tracks, one of which was just a copy of the other, made using the + button. One has a full green button and the other does not, so I am at a loss to explain why.

I should note that BOTH these tracks have the Trim option have the Trim option ticked. No other tracks in this project have the Trim option ticked. Could this be my problem after all?

I have attached an image of the event list editor (as least I think this is it). There are over 4500 events so I presume you did want to see the whole list?
Attachments
Screen Shot 2021-09-28 at 4.30.31 pm.png
Screen Shot 2021-09-28 at 4.30.31 pm.png (1.83 MiB) Viewed 632 times
Screen Shot 2021-09-28 at 4.29.52 pm.png
Screen Shot 2021-09-28 at 4.29.52 pm.png (2.26 MiB) Viewed 632 times
Macbook Pro 2018 Retina WITH 4TB flash drive, Logic Pro X 10.5.1, OSX Mojave 10.14.6, UAD Apollo 8, UAD Apollo Twin, Apogee Duet
TEControl BBC2 breath controller. Monitors - Adam A5's with Adam Sub 7
Various Neumann mics, Shure SM7B, Sennheiser 421, Sennheiser 935 and various Rode mics.
Nord Stage 2, AKAI MPK25 controller, several clawhammer banjos (including a Chuck Lee and an Enoch Dobson), piano accordion.
 
User avatar
Atlas007
Posts: 10195
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:58 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: Region automation changes not working

Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:19 am

Trim is a different automation mode.
Your 2 display don't show the same things. The top one is showing the Global Tracks, which isn't related to automation... While in the second picture features CC1 events in the Event List editor.

Your idea to get further acquainted with automation seems to be a sensible one to me.
LogicPro 10.6.3, MainStage3.5.3
MBPro 17", Core2Duo, 8G, OSX 10.12.6
MacPro, Xeon 6Cores, 64GB, OSX 10.15.7
ULN8, MOTU MIDI TP-AV, C4, MCU Pro, KorgNano, Novation SLMkII
AAS, NI, Celemony, Spectrasonics, Korg, Arturia, etc...
PC, iPadPro 5th gen 12.9”(Duet D., V-Control & LogicRemote), AtariST(Notator SL), Several vintage gear
 
JakobP
Posts: 2212
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:49 pm
Location: Stockholm

Re: Region automation changes not working

Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:58 am

I suggest you try disable Midi Chase in project settings, chase can behave weird on occasions. Also, the "read" button state doesn't change for midi cc, only for regular automation
Logic Pro 10.5.1 • OS X 10.14.6 • MBP 15" Early 2013 • 2.4 GHz Intel Core i7 • 8GB RAM • iMac 27 Late 2013 • 3.4 GHz Intel Core i5 • 16GB RAM • Focusrite Saffire 6 USB • Presonus Inspire 1394 • Roland UM-One mkII • Behringer FCB1010 • Gibson ES335 • cheap midi keyboard
 
amusong
Topic Author
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:13 am
Location: Australia mostly

Re: Region automation changes not working

Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:19 pm

Thanks Atlas007

I sent the two images for you as follows:
1. To show how the automation button turns green sometimes, in some way that I do not understand. For example the two cello tracks were set up the same and yet one shows a green button and one does not. Thinking about this now, I realise that the one with the green button does have track automation (for volume) but the one without the green button does not. So I have learnt something new from you there.
2. The second image was of my event list editor, a separate issue, because you asked for it (or so I thought). Was this what you were asking for above?

I have also printed out the entire section of the Logic Manual on automation (pages 601 - 620) to read about automation thoroughly, at your suggestion. That should wise me up about trim mode.

I am at present perplexed by why these two tracks are in trim mode, when I did not actually tick them into trim mode myself....they are just in trim mode automatically. Hopefully my reading will help on that issue.
Macbook Pro 2018 Retina WITH 4TB flash drive, Logic Pro X 10.5.1, OSX Mojave 10.14.6, UAD Apollo 8, UAD Apollo Twin, Apogee Duet
TEControl BBC2 breath controller. Monitors - Adam A5's with Adam Sub 7
Various Neumann mics, Shure SM7B, Sennheiser 421, Sennheiser 935 and various Rode mics.
Nord Stage 2, AKAI MPK25 controller, several clawhammer banjos (including a Chuck Lee and an Enoch Dobson), piano accordion.
 
amusong
Topic Author
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:13 am
Location: Australia mostly

Re: Region automation changes not working

Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:24 pm

Thanks JakobP,

I do not think MIDI chase is on for this project. I have attached an image from my project settings page. It is not entirely clear to me if it is on or not from looking at this, but one thing is certain......when I start project playback I do not hear any midi notes that the playhead is over, and do not hear anything from that MIDI instrument until the playhead moves onto the next note.

Thanks for the tip about the state of the automation button - I get that now.
Attachments
Screen Shot 2021-09-29 at 10.10.22 am.png
Screen Shot 2021-09-29 at 10.10.22 am.png (1.51 MiB) Viewed 561 times
Macbook Pro 2018 Retina WITH 4TB flash drive, Logic Pro X 10.5.1, OSX Mojave 10.14.6, UAD Apollo 8, UAD Apollo Twin, Apogee Duet
TEControl BBC2 breath controller. Monitors - Adam A5's with Adam Sub 7
Various Neumann mics, Shure SM7B, Sennheiser 421, Sennheiser 935 and various Rode mics.
Nord Stage 2, AKAI MPK25 controller, several clawhammer banjos (including a Chuck Lee and an Enoch Dobson), piano accordion.
 
JakobP
Posts: 2212
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:49 pm
Location: Stockholm

Re: Region automation changes not working

Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:50 pm

Yeah, you have chase enabled on your screenshot (not for notes, though). Try unchecking all the boxes and see how it behaves.
Logic Pro 10.5.1 • OS X 10.14.6 • MBP 15" Early 2013 • 2.4 GHz Intel Core i7 • 8GB RAM • iMac 27 Late 2013 • 3.4 GHz Intel Core i5 • 16GB RAM • Focusrite Saffire 6 USB • Presonus Inspire 1394 • Roland UM-One mkII • Behringer FCB1010 • Gibson ES335 • cheap midi keyboard
 
amusong
Topic Author
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:13 am
Location: Australia mostly

Re: Region automation changes not working

Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:26 am

OK - disabled all check boxes on the chase settings page and the behaviour still occurs. I have bounced a very brief section of the audio and taken an image .of the corresponding MIDI data. The cello is breath controlled for expression. Other controller data you can see in the back ground relates to vibrato.

You can see and hear clearly the note ducking at both bar 25 and 27 although the breath data clearly swells at this point now. The sound you hear reflects the breath data that was recorded at the time I originally made this track. It appears edited in the region automation but does not alter the sound as a result of editing to what you now see.

STOP PRESS - I could not upload the audio file. It was an mp3 and the message box did not like that extension. Is there a way to attach this audio file?
Attachments
Screen Shot 2021-09-29 at 5.16.55 pm.png
Screen Shot 2021-09-29 at 5.16.55 pm.png (1.79 MiB) Viewed 522 times
Macbook Pro 2018 Retina WITH 4TB flash drive, Logic Pro X 10.5.1, OSX Mojave 10.14.6, UAD Apollo 8, UAD Apollo Twin, Apogee Duet
TEControl BBC2 breath controller. Monitors - Adam A5's with Adam Sub 7
Various Neumann mics, Shure SM7B, Sennheiser 421, Sennheiser 935 and various Rode mics.
Nord Stage 2, AKAI MPK25 controller, several clawhammer banjos (including a Chuck Lee and an Enoch Dobson), piano accordion.
 
User avatar
Atlas007
Posts: 10195
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:58 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: Region automation changes not working

Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:01 am

amusong wrote:
...
STOP PRESS - I could not upload the audio file. It was an mp3 and the message box did not like that extension. Is there a way to attach this audio file?
Have you tried via SoundCloud? Some other are also using links to online file depository like DropBox,,,

In your last screen capture, besides the selected on (Breath), I noticed there are (3) different automations going on.
different automations.jpg
different automations.jpg (189.46 KiB) Viewed 514 times

Could they be interacting with (or against) one another when interpreted by your plugin(s) (target-s)?

Also when dealing with CC (and region automation), on playback, their (recorded) events MIDI channel has to correspond with the plugin's one. Is that the case? In that regard, does the MIDI channel Track's parameter set accordingly?
LogicPro 10.6.3, MainStage3.5.3
MBPro 17", Core2Duo, 8G, OSX 10.12.6
MacPro, Xeon 6Cores, 64GB, OSX 10.15.7
ULN8, MOTU MIDI TP-AV, C4, MCU Pro, KorgNano, Novation SLMkII
AAS, NI, Celemony, Spectrasonics, Korg, Arturia, etc...
PC, iPadPro 5th gen 12.9”(Duet D., V-Control & LogicRemote), AtariST(Notator SL), Several vintage gear
 
amusong
Topic Author
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:13 am
Location: Australia mostly

Re: Region automation changes not working

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:24 am

Thanks Atlas007

I checked the MIDI channels and you can see from the attached image that everything is on Ch 1. The event list editor is on Ch1 all the way through the event list editor from top to bottom.

The other data you see in the background is from the TEC BB2 breath controller and is the vibrato rate and vibrato depth data. All of this normally operates without a problem. As far as I know it has no effect on expression/breath at all.

I wish I could figure out how to upload an audio file so that you can hear what I hear.
Attachments
Screen Shot 2021-09-29 at 7.18.03 pm.png
Screen Shot 2021-09-29 at 7.18.03 pm.png (2.16 MiB) Viewed 498 times
Macbook Pro 2018 Retina WITH 4TB flash drive, Logic Pro X 10.5.1, OSX Mojave 10.14.6, UAD Apollo 8, UAD Apollo Twin, Apogee Duet
TEControl BBC2 breath controller. Monitors - Adam A5's with Adam Sub 7
Various Neumann mics, Shure SM7B, Sennheiser 421, Sennheiser 935 and various Rode mics.
Nord Stage 2, AKAI MPK25 controller, several clawhammer banjos (including a Chuck Lee and an Enoch Dobson), piano accordion.
 
amusong
Topic Author
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:13 am
Location: Australia mostly

Re: Region automation changes not working

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:40 am

OK...I have worked out how to attach an audio file, by reading one of David's other posts. It has to be compressed. I have compressed it and attached it. The file relates to the image above which I have reattached here to everything is together.

The notes at Bar 25 and 27 are very delayed in the their start, but the midi data show breath starts right on the notes beginning in each case.
Attachments
Screen Shot 2021-09-29 at 5.16.55 pm.png
Screen Shot 2021-09-29 at 5.16.55 pm.png (1.79 MiB) Viewed 495 times
Wolves in the Wood 2 - Cello Fragment.mp3.zip
(225.97 KiB) Downloaded 12 times
Macbook Pro 2018 Retina WITH 4TB flash drive, Logic Pro X 10.5.1, OSX Mojave 10.14.6, UAD Apollo 8, UAD Apollo Twin, Apogee Duet
TEControl BBC2 breath controller. Monitors - Adam A5's with Adam Sub 7
Various Neumann mics, Shure SM7B, Sennheiser 421, Sennheiser 935 and various Rode mics.
Nord Stage 2, AKAI MPK25 controller, several clawhammer banjos (including a Chuck Lee and an Enoch Dobson), piano accordion.
 
User avatar
Atlas007
Posts: 10195
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:58 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: Region automation changes not working

Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:28 am

Have you tried shifting the notes to the left (making them a little earlier)?
LogicPro 10.6.3, MainStage3.5.3
MBPro 17", Core2Duo, 8G, OSX 10.12.6
MacPro, Xeon 6Cores, 64GB, OSX 10.15.7
ULN8, MOTU MIDI TP-AV, C4, MCU Pro, KorgNano, Novation SLMkII
AAS, NI, Celemony, Spectrasonics, Korg, Arturia, etc...
PC, iPadPro 5th gen 12.9”(Duet D., V-Control & LogicRemote), AtariST(Notator SL), Several vintage gear
 
JakobP
Posts: 2212
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:49 pm
Location: Stockholm

Re: Region automation changes not working

Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:51 am

Any specific reason for having the track set to midi channel 1 in the inspector ? The track below (the one that's working?) seems to have its channel set to "All" ?
Logic Pro 10.5.1 • OS X 10.14.6 • MBP 15" Early 2013 • 2.4 GHz Intel Core i7 • 8GB RAM • iMac 27 Late 2013 • 3.4 GHz Intel Core i5 • 16GB RAM • Focusrite Saffire 6 USB • Presonus Inspire 1394 • Roland UM-One mkII • Behringer FCB1010 • Gibson ES335 • cheap midi keyboard
 
amusong
Topic Author
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:13 am
Location: Australia mostly

Re: Region automation changes not working

Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:23 pm

OK
Thanks for all your help. I printed out the section of the manual dealing with automation, and have spend several days studying it and trying things on Logic that came to mind as I read it. In short, nothing worked. The automation that I wrote to correct the "late" sound of my notes stubbornly refused to be read by Logic. I have given up on trying to find out why.

However....on a brighter note.....one of the things that I did read about was copying automation with the mouse. I tried copying some automation from earlier in the track (using Selection followed by Option-Click) into the affected areas. Lo and behold this shifted automation data was read and the notes sounded exactly as I wanted them to!

I then tried manipulating this shifted data and reduced the breath data automation to zero by manually writing it down. No effect at all. To check that I was manipulating the correct data I reduced ALL data in the affected area to zero. No effect....it now sounded according to the shifted data but not to the manual writedown This means that manually writing the data does not alter things in this case. It's a mystery to me, and I would love to know why this happens (as it does to me from time to time) but I think it's time to move on.

Just thought I would record this outcome for posterity in case someone looks up this post. Beware....there is no answer!
Macbook Pro 2018 Retina WITH 4TB flash drive, Logic Pro X 10.5.1, OSX Mojave 10.14.6, UAD Apollo 8, UAD Apollo Twin, Apogee Duet
TEControl BBC2 breath controller. Monitors - Adam A5's with Adam Sub 7
Various Neumann mics, Shure SM7B, Sennheiser 421, Sennheiser 935 and various Rode mics.
Nord Stage 2, AKAI MPK25 controller, several clawhammer banjos (including a Chuck Lee and an Enoch Dobson), piano accordion.
 
User avatar
Atlas007
Posts: 10195
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:58 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: Region automation changes not working

Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:57 pm

Thank you for sharing your experience.
I’d venture that your project is probably somehow corrupted…
If you plan on rebuilding it, make sure to start from a fresh new project AND/OR from a newly created template (not from the current one).
LogicPro 10.6.3, MainStage3.5.3
MBPro 17", Core2Duo, 8G, OSX 10.12.6
MacPro, Xeon 6Cores, 64GB, OSX 10.15.7
ULN8, MOTU MIDI TP-AV, C4, MCU Pro, KorgNano, Novation SLMkII
AAS, NI, Celemony, Spectrasonics, Korg, Arturia, etc...
PC, iPadPro 5th gen 12.9”(Duet D., V-Control & LogicRemote), AtariST(Notator SL), Several vintage gear