How good are Logic's pianos?

How good are Logic's pianos? Which one is best for pop? And how does it compare to others on the market? What is the best piano software for pop? And how does Logic's compare? I'm a terrible judge of these matters.

 

Thanks

i posted about this last year, trying to find the 'right' piano. i added the excellent "pianoteq' to my arsenal...it's a modeled piano (rather than a sampled one), and it's a joy to play (especially the current version 5)

 

but...i find myself always using the default "Grand Piano" in the EXS24, which i think is actually a garageband instrument..! it's a bit bright, the samples are a bit short, but...it just cuts thru a mix, and makes me think of a piano when i hear it. (for me), it just works.

 

ALL of this is subjective (as i found out asking about pianos). pianoteq 5 is nice, worth checking out. but EVERYONE will have an opinion here... 8)

In addition,

I believe there is a Steinway piano in Garage Band Instruments. I am not sure if it is the same one you are talking about FK.

It does sound fabulous! Just another of the gems inside of Logic.

In addition,

I believe there is a Steinway piano in Garage Band Instruments. I am not sure if it is the same one you are talking about FK.

It does sound fabulous! Just another of the gems inside of Logic.

 

the steinway, yamaha are ok. it's that sad default 'grand piano' that i like best.

 

i did a massive a-b'ing, with a short piano piece duped on a dozen tracks. the logic pianos, pianoteq, some sampled pianos.

decided i liked pianoteq, but again...went back to the logic grand.

 

seriously tho? whatever works...

It's just my opinion, but the quality of a piano sound is subjective.

 

Dan Rad

Personally, I often prefer the default EXS piano to my more expensive Kontakt ones! Not sure why, just find the sound is more... musically convenient.

Sure, the Kontakt pianos might sound more realistic, but they don't get me grooving in quite the same way. Maybe I've just become conditioned to them.

 

And with heavy reverb and plucky compression the EXS piano can really shine IMO.

There are a couple of other little gems hidden in logic.

There a a few Bosendorfer pianos, but they are not software instruments, but channel strip settings. These I believe require you to have downloaded the Jam packs.

If you create a software instrument track, then if you click on the Setting button at the top of an Instrument Channel Strip, the first category is 01 Acoustic Piano's, and in that category the Bosendorfer settings are the first ones.

Note: when I create a software instrument track Logic defaults to the EVP88, the button where this appears is the "Settings" Button, so I click on this.

 

A nice thing about these channel strip settings is, you can "de-engineer" them to see how these sounds were achieved, and apply this info to other instruments.

PS I'm still on logic pro 9 so it may differ slightly in X

If it sounds good it is good.

 

Generally speaking, though, there really is no such thing as "best" when it comes to any sound. It's all about context. You said "pop" but that's a pretty broad category. I'd say just try the various Logic piano sounds and see what YOU think. Don't worry if it's a "stock" sound or a "garage band sound" as opposed to a more expensive 3rd party instrument. If it sounds good, it is good.

I find pianos tricky. I would like others' opinions. One can ask the question in the abstract. Context always matters. In some context a kazoo is better than a Stradivarius. But in the abstract the Stradivarius is better. It makes a better sound.

 

Furthermore, if you go back and actually read what I wrote, you'll see that I also asked about other pianos on the market. And you'll be able to conclude that I don't posess them. So, I can't really make an assessment can I?

But in the abstract the Stradivarius is better. It makes a better sound.

 

That's just not true. First of all, there's no such thing as an abstract Stradivarius. Not even in conceptual music. Second, no sound is "better" than any other sound. The ONLY thing that could be happening, is that any sound x pleases any listener y more than another sound. So, it's a matter of taste, or better: acquired opinions learned, borrowed, taken from other people.

 

Furthermore, if you go back and actually read what I wrote,

 

That's a rude assumption, uncalled for. Ski is a very reputable and seasoned professional and former moderator of this site who deserves a lot more respect than you give him. Plus he gave you a valuable answer.

 

I also asked about other pianos on the market. And you'll be able to conclude that I don't posess them. So, I can't really make an assessment can I?

 

And do you actually think you can, just after reading other peoples opinions about it?

If you want to be a better judge you'll need to practice, though all you really need to do is answer one question: "do I like it?" There are only two answers: yes or no. "Hmm, don't know..." means no.

They are quite nice,

 

Although I usually go elsewhere for the final tone something like the steinway in EXS24 is great for getting ideas down and sounds good enough for inspiration

I record pop and I like the ESX24 Steinway. I like it because it cuts through the mix. Pianos can get lost in a pop mix, especially dark sounding grand pianos, so I look for a bright piano with a sharp attack. For that I think of Yamaha and Steinway.

 

I have XLN Addictive Keys. There are a lot of beautiful presets available in the software. I bought the Yamaha upright as well as the Studio Grand. Both are gorgeous, but the Yamaha has a great pop piano sound. The software offers plenty of ways to tailor the sound for your mix.

 

I think the ESX24 Steinway holds its own and sounds good in a pop mix. Even after buying Addictive Keys, I still load the ESX24 Steinway pretty often. Logic's pianos are good.

I record pop and I like the ESX24 Steinway. I like it because it cuts through the mix. Pianos can get lost in a pop mix, especially dark sounding grand pianos, so I look for a bright piano with a sharp attack. For that I think of Yamaha and Steinway.

 

I have XLN Addictive Keys. There are a lot of beautiful presets available in the software. I bought the Yamaha upright as well as the Studio Grand. Both are gorgeous, but the Yamaha has a great pop piano sound. The software offers plenty of ways to tailor the sound for your mix.

 

I think the ESX24 Steinway holds its own and sounds good in a pop mix. Even after buying Addictive Keys, I still load the ESX24 Steinway pretty often. Logic's pianos are good.

 

Thanks. That's what I wanted to know.

First of all, there's no such thing as an abstract Stradivarius.

 

Of course there is. Most people who know the word only know Stradivarius in the abstract and can't tell you even whether they have heard one. They have no particular knowledge of any Stradivarius whatsoever.

 

The issue is just I asked a basic question. I wanted an answer to that question. All over the web there are threads about sample instruments and their relative merits and shortcomings. But somehow my asking the question here about the pianos leads to my getting a lecture about how I have to use my ear. Pleeeze. And now I have to hear how I somehow am unappreciative of the great lesson. Pleeeze again. If the lesson is so great, then perhaps it deserves its own thread. But I don't appreciate having it foisted on me for no damned reason whatsoever. Really, you could do the same thing on just about any forum. How good is the new Mercedes? Well, you need to go drive it and see and it depends on the context of how you'll be using it. Oh thanks. Oh brother.

You're welcome. Edited July 21, 2014 by Eriksimon

I like to hear people's opinions and experiences with software. That's a big reason I come to any music forum. There are many many piano sample libraries and AUs to be heard. Too many. It's nice to have a starting place. It seems harsh in the extreme to call the OPs question BS.

 

It was a sincere question that has been met with the weird, and now fashionable, response of "what use is it to ask?".

Granted, I was harsh, though not in the extreme, really - it was only mildly harsh, with a hint of tube distortion ...

 

You said "weird"... and "fashionable"... seems somewhat paradoxical... imagine, someone calling me fashionable! That's weird!

 

Anyway...

 

Yes, Logics' piano's are pretty good. If you cannot hear that one piano sounds "better" than another piano, then another piano really isn't better. On the other hand, sometimes I come across an expensive sampled or modelled piano, and when playing it the first thought is "I can't believe it's not better".

Granted, I was harsh, though not in the extreme, really - it was only mildly harsh, with a hint of tube distortion ...

 

You said "weird"... and "fashionable"... seems somewhat paradoxical... imagine, someone calling me fashionable! That's weird!

Hahaha. Thanks, I needed a laugh. Sometimes I get too serious for my own good.

I like the Logic pianos. Sometimes I use them. Sometimes I use Native Instrument's The Giant which is amazing. But I've used the Logic pianos quite a bit for certain pop projects. I also most always sketch out ideas first with the Logic pianos too.

If it sounds good it is good.

 

Generally speaking, though, there really is no such thing as "best" when it comes to any sound. It's all about context. You said "pop" but that's a pretty broad category. I'd say just try the various Logic piano sounds and see what YOU think. Don't worry if it's a "stock" sound or a "garage band sound" as opposed to a more expensive 3rd party instrument. If it sounds good, it is good.

 

I agree with ski's post completely. I would add that I've fallen into the trap of buying a couple of pretty large file size samples pianos, and realised that mega-multi-samples are not a guarantee of either sound quality or playability. One exception that comes to mind has been the Fazioli by Imperfect Samples - which really stands out from other piano libraries I've encountered before. It is really excellent and good value.

 

The Fazioli aside, I agree that context is critical. Logic X has a few really interesting pianos, which all serve different functions successfully in different compositions or tracks. I've often found that pianos (both Logic & 3rd Party) that might not sound especially fabulous played alone can sit extremely well in the context of a mix - and vice versa. My "go to" piano isn't a Logic instrument, however, it is the Alicia Keys piano for Kontakt. It isn't gigantic, in Gb terms, but it just seems to have been very thoughtfully programmed; it is wonderfully "right" for me in terms of the controller keyboard I use, and it fits a lot of different playing styles, barring perhaps very forceful playing technique requiring strident dynamics.

 

I felt really impressed by the improvements and additions in the entire included bundled sample libraries with Logic X, and their pianos, to my mind, stand up as well as any 3rd party offerings.

Well, jeez. I hate to resurrect a 3-yr-old thread, but that won't stop me .

 

I seem to learn more about piano sounds as I get better at this, but I have been hearing a distinctive bright sound that I wish the LPX pianos had. I use the Steinway as the primary piano, but it is a little harsh and grainy at certain notes in octaves 3 and 4 (which is where it is likely used most).

 

I discovered if I layered the Bosey underneath it a few dB down, it warms it up a bit and softens that grit, so I have been doing that. I also typically layer 'Electro Harmonix' under that a few more dB down, which adds a nice body and extends the sustain nicely. That's an EP harmonic, but it seems to lend a good concert-hall AP sound without the wash of a hall reverb.

 

Still, not satisfied. The sound I am searching for is brighter. Not trebly-er, but with harmonics at ~2K. George Duke used this a lot, and I love it. But I have not found it. I thought it might be a DX7 patch, but now I am not so sure. The EP1 patch there is close, and the sound I am looking for is sort of a hybrid between acoustic and electric anyway (IOW, it does not have to be a strict AP, it only has to sound similar to that and be good).

 

Today I listened to demos of Native Instruments 'The Grandeur', which is very impressive and seems like about the closest thing to what I am looking for. But I wonder if there are recommendations from the gurus here, before I shell out for that.

I'm of the school of "If it sounds good then it is good". In college I would use the stock Steinway for all of my college assignments. My professor kept telling me what a great piano sound I had. Something about that piano just seems to really sit in well with the majority of the music I make.

I must agree. The Steinway is in my opinion very good, and it is my primary instrument. Even better when layered with the Bosey. It does 'sit well'. It also seems to be well-regarded among those long-hairs that are very piano-centric in their music and have auditioned many of the others out there.

 

But it just can't create the sound I am looking for. 'The Grandeur' seems to be able to, but I am still on the fence.

The three pianos I use from NI are The Grandeur, Una Corda, and The Giant. They cover 99% of my piano needs. I still use Logic pianos as my "scratch" pianos. The Grandeur does not get mentioned much, but it's a really solid piano. I love the fx patches on the Giant, and doing ambient music, Una Corda is life.

Hmmmm... when you say, "George Duke used it a lot," I find myself wondering whether George actually "used it," or was it it "his engineer?"

 

We can of course be quite sure that, after Sir George played his piano onto a piece of recording tape, that sound was surely manipulated in the ways that could be done at that time. It seems to me that you've already (re-)discovered "doubling," so how about Eq?

Well, yes. My first thought was boost 2K. But b4 I did that I realized this was not the solution. Every note on (this) piano sound has the 'same' sound, and has harmonics that are strong in higher registers, and in a way where each note's timbre is due to specific harmonics relative to each fundamental. But this means that each note has a different response regarding EQ. What I mean by that is that a C2 would have the same freqs boosted as a C4, were I to simply boost 2K. That would not be true to the timbre, which is something EQ can only have a limited effect on.

 

Now if I had an EQ that changed its response relative to tracking the fundamental (you listening, Waves? Here's my $29) …

 

As for George, I can only imagine. But how he got the sound is probably beside the point. And as I stated just above, 'manipulation' of a sound is quite limited in shaping the basic inherent timbre or in simulating this sort of characteristic. IOW, the original sound is 90% of what you could end up with, regardless of the amount of manipulation, other than wacky way out stuff.

 

The inherent 'starting' timbre is the real key. You can't eq in a sound that doesn't already exist, for instance. And you could play around all day with EQ, compression, enveloper and 'smart' controls or $9000 of Waves bullshit plugins on a brass snare in the Drummer Instrument and never be able to even come close to having it sound like one of the other snares available there.

 

Try this. Record your Steinway at a velocity of 80. Then EQ it to make it sound like it does when the velocity would be 100. Not remotely possible, bc they are two different velocity layers with different inherent characteristics of timbre. If we could do this with EQ, we would only ever need a single velocity layer. The Grandeur is made of over 2500 different samples for 88 notes, for a very good reason.

 

Also, the timbre of the kb sound one plays as they lay down a track influences the creativity and the way you play it, and it is my firm belief that most good musicians get the basic sound, the timbre, the best they can get it as it is being tracked. True, one could track on a Wurly, for instance, then use the MIDI track of that and replace it wholesale with a Rhodes after the fact, but I think for a George Duke he probably would go in with the intent of a Rhodes 98% of the time, for instance, and MIDI in a Wurly only when the Rhodes didn't end up sitting as well as he had hoped in the mix.

I never liked the EXS24 pianos. They don't sound real, but they just sound sampled. For some house groove chords they might be good enough, but I reach out for TruePiano or Arturia's Piano for more "real" sounding pianos. Kontakt also features some very good pianos, although sampled, they are pretty realistic. The sampling technique behind the Kontakt pianos is much more sophisticated compared to EXS.

 

On the other hand, EXS is very light. So good for doing scratches or gathering ideas, for arrangement drafts, for instance when you're working mobile and don't have endless RAM and/or disc space.

I’d throw pianoteq in as a very playable instrument. I always seem to get more feeling when using it.

If I may interject something in here too, like the strad analogy a good piano played by an actual player will sound different than by a doodler. As for Logic Pianos, they are adequate, but, if you play, they fall rather short for response. Once you get into NI sample instruments etc, (like Alicia Keys) whole other kettle of fish . And as mentioned above, depending on what you want, sound will be subjective to what you like personally. Like a difference between those of us that like Yamaha Pianos and those that like Roland, or can't stand electronic in any way, and will settle for nothing short of a real Steinway .

 

Tony