Jump to content

Mixing On Headphones...


Recommended Posts

Who's into mixing on headphones??

 

I heard Andrew Scheps state the other day that he mixes a lot on headphones when he has to. There has been even one instance where he did an entire project on a mix and when he submitted it to mastering at Abbey Roads, they didn't do a thing. They send it sounded great as it was.

 

Has anyone else had similar experiences?? Explain your process...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's Andy Scheps, then there's the rest of us.  :wink: He's been mixing since the 1980's. He probably is so familiar with how stuff sounds when he does this or that, or instantiates this or that plugin, that he gets things great. I am merely mortal. I will say that I have Sennheiser 650s and love their fidelity. However, there's no substitute for hearing a mix inside a room with decent monitors... still, I struggle. 

 

Scheps will also tell you that he travels to some mixes bringing his Tannoy monitors along, because he just knows how things are supposed to sound on them.      [my 2 cents]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it is definitely about knowing your headphones and relating to your reference mixes.  Seemingly when you hear this type of feedback it makes it achievable.

 

There are other things we can use on top, like the whole SonarWorks calibration thing, or the Waves NX for setting top a virtual 3D "mix space" environment.  

 

The virtual environment certainly lends a lot to putting you in the same space where you feel like you are using monitors, providing you calibrate it properly.  About the only thing it can't do is emulate the way you feel sub frequencies impacting the body.  So it will never be entirely the same.

 

That cam tracking, however is not so great.  I think it really requires the hardware tracker.

 

Oh thats funny...  I just looked it up on the Website and the page link takes me straight to their Kickstarter page.

 

 

But damn... that tracker is available for preorder now.  I have some serious considering to do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i had a meeting a couple of years ago at a "major" label. the guy listening to my music (a pop singer) told me the production was great, then recommended a mixing engineer. i was insulted, i'm a great mixer! he laughed, then said "you're mixing on headphones"... which was true in this case.

 

you get better perspective, a better sense of balance, air... definition, in monitors. 

 

so i use both, but ALWAYS focused on the monitors first. if i can get it sounding really good on monitors, it will translate to headphones. the reverse seems rarely true...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm kind of forced to use headphones more than monitors due to working at night most of the time. My Beyerdynamic DT 880 Pros sound fantastic and are very comfortable to wear for hours on end. The trick is to maintain a 'reasonable' listening level if you need to use them for an extended period of time. Even then, I force myself to take regular breaks so that ear fatigue doesn't become an issue. But ideally, switching between decent monitors and quality headphones provides the best of both worlds and is what I aim for during the mixing process.

 

- xpander

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wonder if there are common mistakes when using headphones? Like bass being too subtle.

Not claiming this to be an absolute fact, but by the fully separated L & R channels directly to your ears nature of headphone monitoring, it's very easy mix way too narrow and also to mix the center sounds (vocal, kick, bass for eg) several dBs too low.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I never had a problem of mixing too narrow too much.  This is probably owing to the nature that I like to use the stereo plane as another form of dynamic progression.  For example, starting a mix off more narrowly but as the sound builds up it not only becomes louder, but wider.  

 

I also like to balance similar style sounds on either side like a form of counter point.  This is was an analogue style approach from the earlier days.  I'm not just talking offsetting guitars or putting a delayed version on the other side, I'm talking about offsetting 2 different types of sounds, that share a common tonality, harp and acoustic guitar as one example, maybe piano and acoustic, if the piano isn't too bass heavy, or maybe a Rhodes and a piano or a guitar of some description... you get the idea.

 

Mids being too low usually aren't an issue in my case either.  This may be due to primarily starting a mixing in mono, getting the core elements working together first, with careful attention applied to the bottom end and overall loudness. Then I will introduce the other elements, offsetting stereo elements, and opening up the stereo field just enough where it doesn't take away from the drive from the centre.  Its easy to boost it too much, because all that stereo goodness is like ear candy, but I'm all to aware of this and avoid it.  I want to envelope the listener, without swamping them in the stereo space.

 

Oh and then there is the use of reference mixes so I always have a fresh idea of what the average levels should be.

 

This is me anyway.  I may be the example, or one of those exceptions people often refer too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know folks who mix only on headphones, and I can hear it..  But it is fun to use phones, and putting in some ear candy, that's not readily apparent on speakers.. First thing is KNOW your monitors and headphones. I mix on Genelec 8040's  then listen on 1000 Series Grados for final adjustments. They both have their place..  If you have to mix on phones,  cause of sound issues..  than you have too..  
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not claiming this to be an absolute fact, but by the fully separated L & R channels directly to your ears nature of headphone monitoring, it's very easy mix way too narrow and also to mix the center sounds (vocal, kick, bass for eg) several dBs too low.

I haven't tried it, but this plug-in (https://goodhertz.co/canopener-studio) claims to recreate the L ↔ R acoustic crossfeed for your headphones.

 

CanOpener.png.56f64920f72b2ce2bdc598bdfabc9faf.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh yeah, that does a similar thing to NX, without emulating actual physical space your speakers would otherwise be occupying.  

 

http://www.waves.com/1lib/images/products/hardware/full/nx-virtual-mix-room-nx-head-tracker.jpg

I gave NX a trial.  Some people don't like it.  It took me a little while to see past the "reverb" kind of effect and actually be able to visualise the speakers in 3D space.  It helped me to create a preset that mimicked my studio setup, so that way I could visualise the sound emerging from the speakers.  As I turn my head to face these speakers, the tracking accommodates and it actually does feel like I'm staring at my speakers.

 

After I had gotten adjusted to it, I tried out the default, closed my eyes and was better able to visualise speakers in 3D space.

 

How this helps, is there is all sorts of frequency and environmental influence on the sound.  So to hear your sound going through speakers without actually going through speakers, you really do need to get those aspects right.  It reveals a lot about your mix and takes the mix out of your ears and puts it in a physical space.  That bit is kind of key.

 

Of course, no substitute for real speakers, but it comes pretty damn close and does seem to be better than a pair of speakers place in a less than desirable environment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...
I think it is definitely about knowing your headphones and relating to your reference mixes.  Seemingly when you hear this type of feedback it makes it achievable.

 

There are other things we can use on top, like the whole SonarWorks calibration thing, or the Waves NX for setting top a virtual 3D "mix space" environment.  

 

The virtual environment certainly lends a lot to putting you in the same space where you feel like you are using monitors, providing you calibrate it properly.  About the only thing it can't do is emulate the way you feel sub frequencies impacting the body.  So it will never be entirely the same.

 

That cam tracking, however is not so great.  I think it really requires the hardware tracker.

 

Oh thats funny...  I just looked it up on the Website and the page link takes me straight to their Kickstarter page.

 

 

But damn... that tracker is available for preorder now.  I have some serious considering to do.

Demoed Sonarworks 4 recently for headphones and was floored by the huge difference they made on the AKG k271s. There was far less improvement on my K702s, which are much flatter. It’s worth a look for sure. There is zero latency too if you use it as an insert on your master bus.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it is definitely about knowing your headphones and relating to your reference mixes.  Seemingly when you hear this type of feedback it makes it achievable.

 

There are other things we can use on top, like the whole SonarWorks calibration thing, or the Waves NX for setting top a virtual 3D "mix space" environment.  

 

The virtual environment certainly lends a lot to putting you in the same space where you feel like you are using monitors, providing you calibrate it properly.  About the only thing it can't do is emulate the way you feel sub frequencies impacting the body.  So it will never be entirely the same.

 

That cam tracking, however is not so great.  I think it really requires the hardware tracker.

 

Oh thats funny...  I just looked it up on the Website and the page link takes me straight to their Kickstarter page.

 

 

But damn... that tracker is available for preorder now.  I have some serious considering to do.

Demoed Sonarworks 4 recently for headphones and was floored by the huge difference they made on the AKG k271s. There was far less improvement on my K702s, which are much flatter. It’s worth a look for sure. There is zero latency too if you use it as an insert on your master bus.

 

Waves NX has a similar thing going. Although they only have a few headphone models at this stage. It’s main thing though is that it emulates a set of speakers in an ideal space, make if for a more reliable monitoring experience. It works best with the BlueTooth Head Tracker though, as it follows your head through 3D space and adjusts your virtual monitoring position accordingly.

 

It’s a mistake to turn the tracking off though, since it stops “projecting” the 3D image. You can “Lock” your position though, which is the better way to go about it. There’s a version that can now be used with their Ambisonic 3D/VR encoding/decoding plugin.

 

I imagine they will keep adding to their headphone selection as time goes by.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Waves NX...

 

It’s a mistake to turn the tracking off though, since it stops “projecting” the 3D image.

Nah. As in my studio, I prefer being in the sweet spot looking straight forward when I mix, that’s how I hear best. It’s a nice gimmick to be able to turn your head and have the sound move around, but doesn’t give me any sort of actual reference, because I don’t turn my head on purpose in the studio while mixing, either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Waves NX...

 

It’s a mistake to turn the tracking off though, since it stops “projecting” the 3D image.

Nah. As in my studio, I prefer being in the sweet spot looking straight forward when I mix, that’s how I hear best. It’s a nice gimmick to be able to turn your head and have the sound move around, but doesn’t give me any sort of actual reference, because I don’t turn my head on purpose in the studio while mixing, either.

 

The sweet spot is fine, that’s what the Lock is for.

 

With NX, if you turn off the tracking you turn of the “3D” placement effect, essentially turning NX into a filter with a reverb. It ISN’T doing the job it’s designed to do, it’s in the documentation.

 

So yeah, it’s a mistake. Use the Lock.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Umm. Nope. ;)

 

From Waves themselves, I’ve seen it mentioned elsewhere too...

 

Originally Posted by Jeezo View Post

Am i the only one stressing about the dpc latency of bluetooth streaming ...or camera operation ?

 

When i work , at least i m in plane mode .....

 

So my question is simple , can we simply have great results without the mouvement analysis side. ?

 

Originally Posted by Waves NX

 

No. without head tracking the 3D image will collapse. No tracking not NX!

 

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/product-alerts-older-than-2-months/1058720-waves-audio-announces-waves-nx-virtual-mix-room-plugin-2.html

 

I’ve read a few things on the subject matter. In fact Waves NX goes into it more in depth as well, as the posts go on.

 

The gist of it is the brain interprets audio reflections off of surrounding surfaces to determine placement of sound within 3D space. We take all sorts of audio cues by the way the sound interacts with our head and body. We’ve known of this for a while. The trouble is early 3D space simulation through headphones was not very good and there is a reason for that.

 

Earlier attempts never recognised the fact that the head does not remain “fixed” within the space. Unless your head is locked in a vice it is always moving. Not just when we turn our head or glance down at the keyboard, but even if we remain perfectly still our head still moves a little. It even moves as we breathe.

 

With this, the brain is constantly fed all these subtle changes of our head position, it then builds up a 3D image of the space based on that subtle movement. If I recall correctly, all mammals work like this, including bats.

 

So to remove your head movement from the equation it simply flattens the 3D image and is essentially just a reverb effect.

 

You can test this yourself. If you compare Nx with the tracking on versus off, you will hear everything collapse. Okay now try comparing off with it on, but with the XYZ Lock engaged. There is a difference.

 

It’s a misnomer, turning the tracking off doesn’t put your head in the sweet spot, far from it. The way you keep your head in the sweet spot is to have the tracking on and hit exactly that button “Sweet Spot”. At that point it captures your heads location and centres everything. Then by pressing XYZ Lock you freeze the tracking in its ideal spot, while still actively taking the minimal amount of measurements to make sure the 3D field doesn’t collapse. Because our head is never, ever still, and that is how what the brain requires to place sounds in a 3D space.

 

There are a few white papers on it published by university researchers if you want to go more in depth on the subject matter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...