Open Back Headphones...

I had always used closed back headphones before when mixing. I have to mix on headphones due to noise constraints with where I live. Anyways...I just picked up my first set of open back headphones...Beyerdynamic DT990 PRO's. The open back headphones seem to really make a difference...for the better, when mixing. Not nearly as misleading as the closed back. 

 

Has anyone else here had any experiences using open back headphones as opposed to closed back? 

 

Thanks. 

 

 

 

 

Open back are best IMHO. I use Sennheiser HD650.

Open back are best IMHO. I use Sennheiser HD650.

 

I was looking at those too but they were a bit too expensive. Do the HD650's accentuate the bass frequecies a lot? The Beyerdynamic 990's I got are very bass heavy. Too bass heavy, in my opinion.

The 650s are very flat. They aren't high end like the Audeze stuff, but my friend just bought 650s for $325 US. I paid $495 for mine a couple of years ago. My friend has some huge 6 foot tall Dunlavy monitors and swears the 650's sound the same. 

These Beyerdynamic DT990's are nice, but the bass frequencies are out of whack I think. I might have to exchange them for another pair of open back headphones. I'd be willing to make the switch to the 650's, but, the problem is I got these Beyerdynamics at Guitar Center and Guitar Center doesn't carry the Sennheiser 650's anymore.  

 

Saw this though...

 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&O=&Q=&ap=y&c3api=1876%2C%7Bcreative%7D%2C%7Bkeyword%7D&gclid=CM2tzt_Wx9QCFQ-OfgodwiIHMg&is=REG&m=Y&sku=310010

That's where my friend bought his 10 days ago. Dig deep, you won't be unhappy.

I use AKG K702. They're less fatiguing and generally fare better, but AKGs lack bass terribly.

Ended up returning the Beyerdynamic DT990 Pro's due to the excessive bass frequencies.  

apparently I need DT990s.  I currently use Focal Spirit Pro's as my AKG K702 alternative, but even on these I boost 4dB of bass in Sonarworks..

Isn't the idea of studio monitoring devices (speakers or headphones) to have the flattest frequency response possible? 

 

https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD650.pdf

 

For those with more and more—and more—$$$, you can have the same thing as Bob Katz (who wants perfection):

 

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/audeze-lcd-4.782442/page-82

[Double-click the graph on the 10-28-15 post. Then the top-most graph is for LC-4.]

 

My friend used to work with Bob for two years and has a pair of HD 600s (little brother to the 650s). Perhaps they fall into the OP's budget.

sonarworks publish a blogpost about no correlation between frequency response and budget!  

 

Also, if it were that simple, you would have a "perfect pair of monitors", yet you have many brands and designs.

 

also, some prefer more bass, some less, some are more suspectible to highs... different ears different taste. What might sound "enough high end" for you might already shriek to my ears. That's why i want monitors that are gentle on the high end. and have PLEEEENTY of bass. because i love bass. and I always add bass even on commercial recordings. (+6dB on sub. becasue i like the floor to shake)

+ speaker is always a compromise. (you can't have a full range speaker because physics,..)  perhaps when technology advances... but even then, our ears will always be a little different.

 

 

also, for 4K I'd get Focal Euphoria  

Focall Euphoria: Not taking sides. Very good/top drawer. Bob K. has an article on comparison of both using third party listeners. 

 

Katz’s Corner Episode 13 - The Big Shootout: Audeze LCD-4 vs. Focal Utopia

 

Sorry OP, not intending to hijack your post.

Focall Euphoria: Not taking sides. Very good/top drawer. Bob K. has an article on comparison of both using third party listeners. 

 

Katz’s Corner Episode 13 - The Big Shootout: Audeze LCD-4 vs. Focal Utopia

 

Sorry OP, not intending to hijack your post.

No worries! I am actually enjoying the discussion.

@rickenbacker360: wow, very in depth. might be personal preference in any case, after listening to quite a few monitoring speaker systems I ended up with Focals. To bad there isn't an objective way to measure a human ear frequency response and how it affects the preference we have for certain speakers/headphones.

 

but after this review I'd be hard pressed to just shell 4k without at least trying them both!

 

I know that i personally prefer a little "tilted" response than usual - more lows, less highs. My upper limit is still pretty high - 18k clearly, 19k if i focus, it might be that i'm more suspectible to highs, or that I hear lows very bad and need more of them. But maybe i just prefer the feel of more low end, subjectively.

Keeping things in focus. A monitoring system, be it speakers or headphones, should be flat in frequency response—It should not add coloration; and the room should be tuned to not destroy that flat frequency response (in the case of speakers). Our biologic component (ears) have to make due but the less obstacles, the better. 

 

If my system is not flat and produces too much bass, for example, compared to what is actually in a mix, I will tend to turn down the bass until it feels "right"—regardless of genre or style—just to what "sounds right" to me. Unfortunately, what sounds right, on my "bass heavy" system will produce a mix which is actually light on the bass. Yeah, it might sound just great on my system, but it will not translate to other systems in the expected same way.

 

True mastering engineers have huge investments in monitors which are flat, and have minimal phase correlation (another topic, outside my area of knowledge). They sit at chairs in front of minimalist workspaces to avoid (as much as possible) any reflections. Whenever I visit or look at pix of mastering rooms, I'm struck by their minimalist nature—except for the speakers.

 

Our job is to mix as close to reality as possible. Their job is to fix our "best efforts" to be as close to "perfection" as our mix can be.

 

The OP is concerned about open back vs. closed back headphones but the underlying purpose for his potential headphone purchase is to make presumably good mixes—ones needing the least amount of fixes at the mastering stage. While it's hard to mix solely on headphones, deckard1 is looking for a cost effective monitoring system, and those HD600 and HD650s are reasonable options. I'm sure there are others.

 

On last thing: I've got a pair of closed back Sennheiser HD280 Pro headphones. They cost $300 when I bought them. Now they're $100. Before I got my 650s, I used the 280s to check my mixes. What I found was whole subtleties, like a soft hi-hat, could not even be heard. I'd take the phones off, there it was, put 'em back on, could not hear. This lower fidelity (non-flat) frequency response prompted my purchase and is why I'm pushing for flat.

 

We now return to your regularly scheduled program...

In the article (review) you referenced above by Bob Katz, he said his Dynaudio speakers cost $60,000. Is that 60k for the pair or for each one? 

 

Also, not to open up a whole new can of worms, but, I believe you don't even need an actual engineer anymore to master tracks...a computer can do it for you.

 

http://join.landr.com/en-as/mastering/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=MasteringSearchEN&utm_term=online_mastering  

I do not know how much Bob's Dynaudio speakers cost. I just know they are top of the line. When he heard them at a recent trade show, he had to have them.

 

Of course, Bob is a world-class mastering engineer, arguably one of the top three. He probably has enough income!

 

He does own the Audeze LC-4 headphones.

 

As for his speakers, I watched his install video, where he used laser beams to get the angle just right. Never mind the special material underneath the speakers which is tuned to resonate at 10 Hz frequency, presumably to not interfere with what we mortals can hear with our ears.

 

Of course, there is LANDR!!!!! Which I'm sure does just as good a job as Bob.

 

But let me not digress too much. The poor OP has enough on his mind.

If my system is not flat and produces too much bass, for example, compared to what is actually in a mix, I will tend to turn down the bass until it feels "right"—regardless of genre or style—just to what "sounds right" to me. Unfortunately, what sounds right, on my "bass heavy" system will produce a mix which is actually light on the bass. Yeah, it might sound just great on my system, but it will not translate to other systems in the expected same way.

 

True mastering engineers have huge investments in monitors which are flat, and have minimal phase correlation (another topic, outside my area of knowledge). They sit at chairs in front of minimalist workspaces to avoid (as much as possible) any reflections. Whenever I visit or look at pix of mastering rooms, I'm struck by their minimalist nature—except for the speakers.

 

Our job is to mix as close to reality as possible. Their job is to fix our "best efforts" to be as close to "perfection" as our mix can be.

Aye, except no system is flat, because it compromised one are or another. Then you have "flat" with different dynamic response, different driver designs, etc etc.. anyway, lots of parameters here. So inherently, there's no "best system" just "differently flawed" systems (When you get to the top).

I really really like Focal monitors, and some people make wonderful mixes on them, and i really dislike genelecs, and with some people its completely opposite.

When I do my mix on headphones, AKG k702, Focal Spirit, if i don't have +4dB bass boost in sonarworks enabled, I will overdo bass in my max by default. That's why I added subwoofer to my Focal Twins, becasue I seriously like bass and I never have enough of it, and i have to deliberately mix less of it. I just enjoy it so much.

I use Focal Twin 6 Be. I have gotten used to them (without the sub, which I can't afford). Even if I had the sub, I'd only use it for dialing in those pesky bass-kick conflicts and then turn it back OFF. Of course, my music is not bass heavy. It sounds like Ploki and I get to our end result the best way we can. And I bet that if I had those $4,000 LC-4 phones and Bob's $60,000 Dynaudios, I'd still struggle. I still think of my HD280s (not 650s) and know I'd have turned up that hi-hat way more if mixing only on headphones (as OP intends to do). I hear that hi-hat just great in the 650s.

 

Side note: At one time I only had Yamaha NS-10m speakers and I'd spend hours and hours traipsing back and forth to the car stereo and a ghetto blaster thingy. Once I got the Focals, my legs (and ears) were spared big time! I still run back and forth, but way less.

 

It boils down to making a decision within one's budget, and a lot of trial and error, listening on different systems, to get familiar with how things will translate to final product.

I'm on twins as well! I bought a used pair and use a sub with them (But not focal, JL-Audio). I use the sub mainly so it shakes my ass, so I don't overdo bass.  

When I was at the Guitar Center returning the Beyerdynamic 990's, I told the salesman that I was returning the 990's because they accentuated the bass way too much. The GC salesman said that is true of all open back headphones. This is correct or not correct? 

Nope, actually the opposite is true. Most of open back headphones have less bass than similar closed backs. All AKG open backs I tried seriously lacked bass in general, while closed backs have plenty. It's the design itself that lends itself to less bass.

Just look at the frequency response graphs for the 650s and the Audeze ones I posted earlier in this thread. You won't see accentuated bass. (Ploki would hate 'em!  ) The GC guy was… misinformed.

I was always under the impression that open backs were designed so that players could hear other players in the room while hearing their own feed most clearly, and yet without any of that sound spilling out of the headphones into the room.  I didn't know they had any other purpose.  You learn something new every day.

I sold a few pieces of gear so I can afford a good pair of open back headphones now. Unfortunately, the Sennheisers are not an option because I have to buy the headphones through Guitar Center and they do not sell the 600's or 650's. However, GC does have some very nice AKG's they sell online. Too bad I can't demo them. Has anyone had any experience with the K712's?

 

http://www.guitarcenter.com/AKG/K712-Pro-Open-Over-Ear-Mastering-Referencing-Headphones-1389714412630.gc?gclid=CNv-vYKK3dQCFUlNfgodag8JEQ&kwid=146696780682x23028493722x327660762

 

 

 

 

Ended up going with these. Supposed to be very neutral and not bass heavy. 

 

http://www.akg.com/pro/p/k702

Generally speaking, open-back headphones offer a better (more accurate) representation of program material with a better sound stage than closed-back headphones.

 

Speaking of Beyer, I'm using the DT 880 Pro's i.e. 250 Ohm version.

 

(+)

 

Excellent for mixing, 'fairly' neutral response

Compression and EQ decisions generally translate well to speakers

Wide sound-stage

Extremely comfortable, you can work with them for hours

 

(-)

 

 Very low levels of distortion - means there is a tendency to crank them higher for extended periods

 Not healthy for your ears, so frequent breaks is necessary (applies to all headphones though)

 

'Cool', but extended low-end response - this is to say they're very clinical / analytical, not musical

Some people can't get along with this character

 

The high-end can be a bit fatiguing

 

Being open-back, they're susceptible to external noise and conversely, noisy to those around you

Generally speaking, open-back headphones offer a better (more accurate) representation of program material with a better sound stage than closed-back headphones.

 

Speaking of Beyer, I'm using the DT 880 Pro's i.e. 250 Ohm version.

 

(+)

 

Excellent for mixing, 'fairly' neutral response

Compression and EQ decisions generally translate well to speakers

Wide sound-stage

Extremely comfortable, you can work with them for hours

 

(-)

 

 Very low levels of distortion - means there is a tendency to crank them higher for extended periods

 Not healthy for your ears, so frequent breaks is necessary (applies to all headphones though)

 

'Cool', but extended low-end response - this is to say they're very clinical / analytical, not musical

Some people can't get along with this character

 

The high-end can be a bit fatiguing

 

Being open-back, they're susceptible to external noise and conversely, noisy to those around you

Aren't the 880's semi-open back? 

I have the K702, and I seriously miss bass on them, but in general they have a very nice sound stage, and are fairly balanced. I initially chose them over sennheisers because HD650 just don't sit right on my head. Sound is fairly similar to be honest.