New iMac Pro or 2013 Mac Pro

Hi Guys... about the new 18 core iMac Pro coming soon -  https://www.apple.com/imac-pro/  I hear it will start with 8 core.

I was shopping for the 2013 Mac Pro 6 core and one Apple Pro team member suggested I wait for iMac Pro because the 2013 Mac Pro processor hasn't been updated in 4 yrs., and that it may not support new OS.  Then another rep said the iMac Pro is really meant for 3D developers.  What are your thoughts?  I'd like to get away from my 

2.5 GHz Intel Core i7 MB Pro.

Thanks in advance for your feedback!

I think the new iMac Pro is geared toward graphic designers and VR stuff. The trashcan Mac Pro was also meant for graphic stuff.

For Logic purposes, a current iMac with a 4.0 Ghz i7 is plenty.

FWIW, a little trick I stumbled on recently to help me with single core overloads on the VI track I'm monitoring/recording -- that being as far as I'm concerned Logic's Achilles heel, and the implied subject of this topic (hoping for more powerful macs) -- is to spread the load with a Reaper64 session Rewired to the Logic session. This is a lot like the slave PC technique, except it's running locally. My single core peaking is mainly just an input monitoring issue, so I've avoided Vienna Ensemble Pro as overkill. 

The reason this is even possible is because Logic can saturate that one thread into crackling without using much of the available CPU. This is why the fastest possible single core speed i7 helps on this issue, though multi cored Xeons with ample RAM do better on high track counts. Which CPU type is better depends on the intended use. The artificial (and surmountable) push to abandon older hardware "because the new OS might not run on it", is an entirely different issue. 

When I'm input monitoring CPU-demanding VIs like Serum, Diva, Dune, and Logic is choking, it's amazing how the meter drops nearly to nothing this way, and the Rewired Reaper Slave handles the load just fine. But the Reaper session can saturate too if you're asking too much of it, especially with Kontakt, and crackling can occur then without Logic's meter peaking, so it always requires some care and tweaking. 

Once the MIDI is recorded, the recorded regions can be dragged to a  normal track, with Logic 10.3.2 load balancing OK, better than previous versions, and the Rewire connection can be re-used as needed. 

supposedly new modular Mac Pro is coming in 2018. 

I think the new iMac Pro is geared toward graphic designers and VR stuff. The trashcan Mac Pro was also meant for graphic stuff.

 

For Logic purposes, a current iMac with a 4.0 Ghz i7 is plenty.

quad-core. OP didn't specify if they have 15" or 13" i7.  

going from 2.5 quadcore to 3.8 quadcore is better, but its not like going to 6 or 12 cores

OP didn't specify if they have 15" or 13" i7.

Says 15 inch MBP quad-core i7 in the signature.

FWIW, a little trick I stumbled on recently to help me with single core overloads on the VI track I'm monitoring/recording -- that being as far as I'm concerned Logic's Achilles heel, and the implied subject of this topic (hoping for more powerful macs) -- is to spread the load with a Reaper64 session Rewired to the Logic session. This is a lot like the slave PC technique, except it's running locally. My single core peaking is mainly just an input monitoring issue, so I've avoided Vienna Ensemble Pro as overkill. 

 

The reason this is even possible is because Logic can saturate that one thread into crackling without using much of the available CPU. This is why the fastest possible single core speed i7 helps on this issue, though multi cored Xeons with ample RAM do better on high track counts. Which CPU type is better depends on the intended use. The artificial (and surmountable) push to abandon older hardware "because the new OS might not run on it", is an entirely different issue. 

 

When I'm input monitoring CPU-demanding VIs like Serum, Diva, Dune, and Logic is choking, it's amazing how the meter drops nearly to nothing this way, and the Rewired Reaper Slave handles the load just fine. But the Reaper session can saturate too if you're asking too much of it, especially with Kontakt, and crackling can occur then without Logic's meter peaking, so it always requires some care and tweaking. 

 

Once the MIDI is recorded, the recorded regions can be dragged to a  normal track, with Logic 10.3.2 load balancing OK, better than previous versions, and the Rewire connection can be re-used as needed. 

While that will work, IMHO, Vienna Ensemble Pro is a more elegant solution for this than Rewire.

OP didn't specify if they have 15" or 13" i7.

Says 15 inch MBP quad-core i7 in the signature.

ah dang! 

then he shouldn't expect much of a performance bump from another quadcore

FWIW, a little trick I stumbled on recently to help me with single core overloads on the VI track I'm monitoring/recording -- that being as far as I'm concerned Logic's Achilles heel, and the implied subject of this topic (hoping for more powerful macs) -- is to spread the load with a Reaper64 session Rewired to the Logic session. This is a lot like the slave PC technique, except it's running locally. My single core peaking is mainly just an input monitoring issue, so I've avoided Vienna Ensemble Pro as overkill. 

 

The reason this is even possible is because Logic can saturate that one thread into crackling without using much of the available CPU. This is why the fastest possible single core speed i7 helps on this issue, though multi cored Xeons with ample RAM do better on high track counts. Which CPU type is better depends on the intended use. The artificial (and surmountable) push to abandon older hardware "because the new OS might not run on it", is an entirely different issue. 

 

When I'm input monitoring CPU-demanding VIs like Serum, Diva, Dune, and Logic is choking, it's amazing how the meter drops nearly to nothing this way, and the Rewired Reaper Slave handles the load just fine. But the Reaper session can saturate too if you're asking too much of it, especially with Kontakt, and crackling can occur then without Logic's meter peaking, so it always requires some care and tweaking. 

 

Once the MIDI is recorded, the recorded regions can be dragged to a  normal track, with Logic 10.3.2 load balancing OK, better than previous versions, and the Rewire connection can be re-used as needed. 

While that will work, IMHO, Vienna Ensemble Pro is a more elegant solution for this than Rewire.

+1 to that! It's a no-brainer.

@Taffy, what's wrong with your MacBook? How much Ram is in it? If it's 16GB, definitely consider a PC slave. You have a lot of life left in that laptop.

Model Name: MacBook Pro

  Model Identifier: MacBookPro11,3

  Processor Name: Intel Core i7

  Processor Speed: 2.5 GHz

  Number of Processors: 1

  Total Number of Cores: 4

  L2 Cache (per Core): 256 KB

  L3 Cache: 6 MB

  Memory: 16 GB

You hit it right on - orchestral cracks when adding tracks is the reason  I'm looking for more processing for ProjectSam Symphobia.

Any suggestions?  The Rewired Reaper Slave sounds interesting...need to learn more about that process and if it would work with Bigwig?

Check if Bitwig works as a Rewire Slave. Probably. With Bitwig being written in Java, I kinda favor the very efficient Reaper, and it's free to try, $60 to own.

FWIW I don't see much reason to get into a "whole 'nother thing" with VEP if the problem is really just input monitoring. 

If the problem is overall load on multiple cores in playback, Logic 10.3.2 already spreads 'em fully, but we can use a slave machine when needed and that works.  With an i7 we get good peaks, but not as many cores to spread the load, so the external slave PC is a good direction. The macbooks have an i7 but not a very fast one, and the 16 GB limit isn't great either. 

Jay, how much more do you squeeze out of a local host like VEP,  if LPX is already pumping on all cores? 

Isn't symphobia kontakt? You could load less into RAM by bypassing prebuffer, and stream more from drive if you have SSD. Should account for ~400 voices (on my system, quad 2.7) before its breaks down, last time i tried.

Another thing, more instances of kontakt and have those you're not working on frozen. cumbersome, but in my opinion less cumbersome than a slave PC setup.

Any links or how to's you can share for bypassing pre buffer and add more instances of contact would be greatly appreciated!

Would the iMac 4.2GHz quad-core 7th-generation Intel Core i7 processor, Turbo Boost up to 4.5GHzbe 32RAM a better processing choice than the 

2013 Mac Pro

• 3.5GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon E5 processor

• 16GB 1866MHz DDR3 ECC memory

Would the iMac 4.2GHz quad-core 7th-generation Intel Core i7 processor, Turbo Boost up to 4.5GHzbe 32RAM a better processing choice than the 

2013 Mac Pro

• 3.5GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon E5 processor

• 16GB 1866MHz DDR3 ECC memory

The iMac has better single core benchmarks, and its ram is faster at 2400 Mhz. System bus is also faster.

Plus, you're not paying for 2 graphic cards that you don't need that come with the trash can.

Would you wait for the new iMac Pro or get the iMac I just pointed out?

Thanks!

Would you wait for the new iMac Pro or get the iMac I just pointed out?

Thanks!

That computer will start at 4000 bucks.

Current iMac is a no-brainer.

Current iMac is a no-brainer.

100% agree.

The Mac Pro will NOT give you better performance on the front-end. Depending upon what plugins you run, it could be SIGNIFICANTLY worse. The iMac "Pro" may have an even slower clock speed than the Mac Pro.

If you need more RAM than 64GB for a big orchestral template, add VEPro servers.

Would the iMac 4.2GHz quad-core 7th-generation Intel Core i7 processor, Turbo Boost up to 4.5GHzbe 32RAM a better processing choice than the 

2013 Mac Pro

• 3.5GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon E5 processor

• 16GB 1866MHz DDR3 ECC memory

The iMac has better single core benchmarks, and its ram is faster at 2400 Mhz. System bus is also faster.

Plus, you're not paying for 2 graphic cards that you don't need that come with the trash can.

https://browser.geekbench.com/mac-benchmarks

ah, roughly 50% better CPU performance than the MBP. my bad then. very good.

Current iMac is a no-brainer.

100% agree.

The Mac Pro will NOT give you better performance on the front-end. Depending upon what plugins you run, it could be SIGNIFICANTLY worse. The iMac "Pro" may have an even slower clock speed than the Mac Pro.

If you need more RAM than 64GB for a big orchestral template, add VEPro servers.

new macs have SSD speed of roughly 3gb/s, i mean... you can stream A LOT more than you could from HDDs where you needed to load a lot of samples in RAM.

symphobia is what, 40GB? I can even stream from my old 500mb/s SSD fine with prebuffers as low as 30kb. (default is 60)

with 3gb/s SSD, you don't even need ram anymore to stream samples. You can literally copy a whole library over in 10secs.

It's not for me, but media composers often run templates of hundreds (or thousands) of tracks, with everything loaded and ready to go. Hence the VEPro rec.

I totally agree that the capabilities of the maxed iMac are more than enough for 99% of (professional) users. Speaks a lot to the incredibly efficiency of Kontakt too, that you can load 30kb (of the attack of a sample) into RAM and it can stream the rest in time.

Many Thanks for helping me decide!

On order (I will update RAM to 32GB)

27-inch iMac with Retina 5K display and Built-in VESA Mount Adapter.

With the following configuration:

4.2GHz quad-core 7th-generation Intel Core i7 processor, Turbo Boost up to 4.5GHz

8GB 2400MHz DDR4

2TB Fusion Drive

Radeon Pro 580 with 8GB video memory

How can I "load 30kb (of the attack of a sample) into RAM"?

That's what Kontakt does, if you use Kontakt libraries. It will load a tiny piece of the sample into memory. The size is different depending upon the user setting or library default from the developer.

Hi,

Just want to thank you all for the great feedback! 

All this is extremely  interesting to me, but I'm a bit in the dark.

If you can link me up to any tutorials or further explanation to excerpts below from this thread it will be further appreciated.

Thanks again 

1. Rewired option 

2. load less into RAM by bypassing prebuffer, and stream more from drive if you have SSD

3. more instances of kontakt and have those (tracks?) you're not working on frozen

4. If you need more RAM than 64GB for a big orchestral template, add VEPro servers. 

5. run templates of hundreds (or thousands) of tracks, with everything loaded and ready to go. Hence the VEPro rec.

I don't think that I would buy a 2013 computer at this point unless the price was really terrific.  (Although my present machine is older than that!)

I routinely buy equipment from the "refurbished equipment" section at apple.com. This is the stuff that was used (e.g.) as demonstrators in retail stores.  All of the bubble-gum has been cleaned off of it ... ... and it is sold "like new," insofar as AppleCare warranty coverage is concerned.  But it's less expensive because, in the eyes of the law, it isn't "new."  It's last year's gear.

I always purchase the maximum amount of AppleCare coverage.

You can customize the equipment somewhat, and I routinely increase the amount of RAM.  If I'm going to be running Logic Pro, I would increase the amount of RAM considerably: 16GB or more.  "The amount of available RAM" will positively influence the performance of any real-time application (such as Logic) more than perhaps any other single thing.  ("A Ferrari's no better than a Yugo if both of them are stuck in traffic on a road that's run out of lanes ...")

And then, "put the thing to work, making music, and don't look back."

I believe we're talking about two very different issues. (1) being after many tracks are recorded, and (2) being while tracking very CPU-intensive VIs 

Logic 10.3.2 running on a 5,1 2012 style 12 core mac Pro with two 3.47 Ghz Xeons and stuffed with RAM very economically handles (1) the former, lots of tracks. But it seems EVERYBODY is having trouble with the single core's peaking when recording MIDI (2) with a hungry VI. Logic is designed so all that VI processing AND servicing the audio driver must run in one thread, crackle crackle.  

FWIW I'm running an overclocked i7-4790 and it's got more margin than anything Apple is offering now, and I still can overload the single core while tracking. 

People talk about VEPro and SSDs and hundreds of tracks in templates, and people get more expensive stuff, but what about that one lousy *ucking single core crackling, still driving people to tears? Am I missing something?  

To answer @taffy, the "rewire option" is a way to take load off the single core while tracking, by running the VI in another process entirely, namely another DAW that gets started in Rewire Slave mode. It's much like using a plugin host like VEPro. The Slave PC technique actually uses a separate machine to run the VIs on, with MIDI being passed to it, and audio coming back. 

People talk about VEPro and SSDs and hundreds of tracks in templates, and people get more expensive stuff, but what about that one lousy *ucking single core crackling, still driving people to tears? Am I missing something?  

That still happens, even with overclocked 67/7700k CPUs. You get a little more headroom in the PC realm, being able to OC, but it's still an issue.

I think you can mitigate it by bussing effects (instead of putting everything on one channel strip), changing the buffer, freezing/printing, and just being mindful of resources when creating a Reaktor patch, for instance. There should be almost no load on the front-end machine from the VEPro tracks loaded from a server. If you're still having issues, maybe there is a config issue? 

How can I "load 30kb (of the attack of a sample) into RAM"?

How can I "load 30kb (of the attack of a sample) into RAM"?

That's what Kontakt does, if you use Kontakt libraries. It will load a tiny piece of the sample into memory. The size is different depending upon the user setting or library default from the developer.

you go into kontakt preferences, "memory", and select "override instrument's preload size". smaller the value, less will be loaded into RAM.

I'm report back once I receive my new iMac.  I'm also getting a SSD RAID for it and hope I don't run into issues.  Thanks!

SSD RAID (0 or 1?) may have better or worse performance depending on usage. Consecutive read will be roughly twice as fast, but random read/write will be slower! Also USB3.0 will be slower than thunderbolt regardless.

@taffy has made probably the best choice. So that's done for now. 

For the rest of us here, we generally know about moving effects off the main buses, and other load-spreading tricks. Playback is not the problem on big systems, and 10.3.2 spreads the load better than previous versions. Projects as a whole play fine, if we optimize settings and keep the record-enabled track selection off the demanding tracks (so none are input-monitored). That's the basis for the famous "select an empty audio track" recommendation from Apple. 

What I've been experimenting with is specifically a workflow to mitigate the input track overloads when tracking, that can occur even with a fast-clock i7. If I keep a single rewire channel open to a slaved Reaper session, I can move the offending VI to the Reaper session and it takes enough of the load off the Logic input track that I can record without overloading so easily. Once the track is recorded I can resume playing it normally in Logic. I can then re-use the Rewire channel for input monitoring the next problem VI track. This works very well for VIs like Serum, Dune, Diva etc. It's trickiest with Kontakt, I'm not sure exactly why yet. Oh, and Sculpture doesn't exist as a standalone AU/VST (sigh). 

VEPro might be more elegant if I wanted to keep VI's in VEPro, but why bother? They play back OK in Logic 10.3.2, with all the cores being well utilized. At that point I don't see how an out of process local host like VEPro is going to make better use of the resources. If we're running out of CPU in playback, then it's time to start freezing/bouncing, or hosting VIs in a remote host on a slave machine with its own resources. 

Or is there some VEPro magic that I'm missing?