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EQ phase meter recommendation


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Can anyone recommend a plugin that show how phase is shifted by my existing EQ plugins?

 

As the experienced engineers here will know, EQ's (unless they are linear phase) introduce changes in the phase of the processed signal. Low and high pass filters producing particularly extreme phase shifts. I realise that this isn't necessarily a problem, but in some situations it can be. I am wondering if any one knows of a plugin which can show how the phase changes when you move an EQ curve. I'm not looking for a new EQ, I'm looking for an extra plugin which can show the phase shift introduced by my existing EQ plugins. There is a VST plugin which does this (I can't remember the name) but I can't find an AU one. Does anyone know of one? Thanks.

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Yes sorry maybe I didn't explain clearly. I'm looking for a plugin meter/analyzer that can show me the phase shift caused by other plugins before it in the chain. So for example I put a Waves H-EQ or Eiosis Air EQ on a channel, then after that I put the analyser plugin - then as I move the EQ plugins curves, the analyser shows the phase shift. There is a VST plugin which can do this, but I can't find an AU one. Perhaps AU format does not allow this kind of communication between plugins?
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Like seeing the phase shifting visually?

Anyways, i'm honestly curious, why do you want to see the phase shifting yeah? Is there any use to it, im honestly curious.

 

Actually I'd like to see the amplitude shape as well, that would be really useful sometimes. I do a lot of parallel processing involving quite long chains of complex effects. I might have three, four or five parallel chains which I use to create soundscapes. These parallel chains often involve some fairly extreme EQ and filtering. Because of the parallel processing, the sometimes extreme phase shifts caused by the EQs can cause unpredictable results. Sometimes I'll get a really unexpected result, for example everything in the 800 to 1.5k area disappears. I find myself sometimes spending ages trying to figure out which part of the chain is cancelling with which other part of the chain and which EQ is causing it. So a visual representation would really speed things up. I might see for example that a particular filter was causing a huge phase shift higher up the frequency band. Seeing that would alert me to the fact that if I'm loosing information in that region, this is probably the reason.

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Phase shift has always been a part of EQing. And when you're EQing, you either like the change in sound, or you don't. It really is that simple. Adjust the EQ until you like the sound that you hear. You are overthinking this.

Steve

 

No I'm not overthinking it, there are various reasons why it would be really useful to me to see this visually. See my reply to loopsinner above.

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You send to the app via AU NetSend plug-in so I'm sure you can set it up on individual aux'es. Haven't tried, but I could give it ago later today.

Sorry. Just a stereo network I/O, so you'll need to move stuff around and it'll be a hassle.

 

In any case, Spectre is a great program if you need excellent metering for other stuff.

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Actually I'd like to see the amplitude shape as well, that would be really useful sometimes. I do a lot of parallel processing involving quite long chains of complex effects. I might have three, four or five parallel chains which I use to create soundscapes. These parallel chains often involve some fairly extreme EQ and filtering. Because of the parallel processing, the sometimes extreme phase shifts caused by the EQs can cause unpredictable results. Sometimes I'll get a really unexpected result, for example everything in the 800 to 1.5k area disappears. I find myself sometimes spending ages trying to figure out which part of the chain is cancelling with which other part of the chain and which EQ is causing it. So a visual representation would really speed things up. I might see for example that a particular filter was causing a huge phase shift higher up the frequency band. Seeing that would alert me to the fact that if I'm loosing information in that region, this is probably the reason.

 

Any processing that manipulates the time and the polarity of a waveform, will cause a phase shift.

 

It’s not just EQ.

 

Now, I know you understand that 2 opposing waves will cancel each other out, but i’m concerned if you are viewing this in a way that is not meaningful to making music. When mixing and sound sculpting, we all do all kinds of processing. At many points of our processes, we cancel something out, we introduce something new in, either deliberately or not.

 

What i mean by meaningful is that, if i know i need to create a new soundscape like the example you gave above by using a single source and do it in multiple sets of parallel processing, i would just use a linear phase EQ in each of the aux tracks.

 

Using linear phase EQs doesn’t completely stop the phasing issue tho, but it helps a tiny bit because i would still have reverbs, delays, modulation — all kinds of processing that manipulates the time and the polarity of a waveform in my processing chain.

 

In this sense, what’s meaningful to me if like the sound I produce, and if it compliments or clashes with other tracks, and how is the the correlation of the stereo/mono compatibility.

 

Call me crazy, but i wouldn’t care about using an oscilloscope to zoom in into a wave signal, take a snapshot of it, and compare it with before and after parallel processing to learn at what point of time a phase cancelation occurs that is probably caused by my Channel EQ.

 

Remember, you’re sound sculpting, you're mixing, you're blending in sounds, you’re doing a lot of processes that causes multiple changes of the phase.

 

Phase cancelation occurs in each of the steps you take that manipulates the time and the polarity of a waveform. Not just the Channel EQ.

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i’m concerned if you are viewing this in a way that is not meaningful to making music.

Honestly, I wasn't asking for advice on how to make music, or mix, or how to do anything actually. I was asking for recommendations on a plugin. As it happens I know exactly what I'm doing. You have nowhere near enough knowledge about me, what I know, or what I do, to be giving out this kind of "advice". To be honest it comes across as condescending, though I'm sure you didn't mean it that way.

 

if i know i need to create a new soundscape like the example you gave above by using a single source and do it in multiple sets of parallel processing, i would just use a linear phase EQ in each of the aux tracks.

Linear phase won't work for me because I need to reproduce these chains live as well as in recordings.

 

Remember, you’re sound sculpting, you're mixing, you're blending in sounds, you’re doing a lot of processes that causes multiple changes of the phase.

Again you are making assumptions about what I know and handing out unsolicited advice in what comes across as a condescending manner. I am well aware of cancellation caused by processing other than EQ.

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Honestly, I wasn't asking for advice on how to make music, or mix, or how to do anything actually. [...] You have nowhere near enough knowledge about me, what I know, or what I do, to be giving out this kind of "advice". To be honest it comes across as condescending, though I'm sure you didn't mean it that way.

 

:shock:

 

Sorry if i sounded condescending to you, i truly didn’t mean it that way.

 

Wasn’t trying to give you advice, reading my post again, i wasn’t sure which part that sounded like me giving you a definite advice that “this is how you should do things”.

 

I did share my thoughts on what is meaningful to me when it comes to phase cancelation, but if that sounds condescending to you, again, im sorry.

 

But if sharing thoughts is to be shut down in here, i guess ill stay quiet then.

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But if sharing thoughts is to be shut down in here, i guess ill stay quiet then.

Not at all, sharing thoughts is fine. But it might be worth noting how you come across. Saying things like "i’m concerned if you are viewing this in a way that is not meaningful to making music" is hard to read in any other way than condescending. And saying: "Remember, you’re sound sculpting, you're mixing, you're blending in sounds, you’re doing a lot of processes that causes multiple changes of the phase." Again sounds very much like you're instructing me to remember what I'm not seeing here.

 

Yet you really have no idea what I know and what I don't know. So it would be more appropriate to phrase things from the point of view that - if you don't know who you're talking to, you should assume that they might know more than you do. Of course they might not. But unless you're sure of that (because they've asked for advice for example), it's better to assume that they might.

 

As it happens I've been mixing and mastering professionally for 20 years, I play all over the world using the parallel processing I mentioned, I have well over 300 rave reviews worldwide on my last four albums alone (which use this processing), many interviews in major glossy publications about my unusual signal chains and mixing techniques etc... etc...

 

That doesn't mean I can't still learn things, I learn things about mixing almost every day. What I'm saying is that on forums like this, you have to assume you might be talking to experienced professionals who know as mush or more than you do - and phrase your responses accordingly.

 

Anyway apology accepted, no worries. I just thought it was worth pointing out.

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You send to the app via AU NetSend plug-in so I'm sure you can set it up on individual aux'es. Haven't tried, but I could give it ago later today.

Thanks lagerfeldt that would be hugely appreciated!

You send to the app via AU NetSend plug-in so I'm sure you can set it up on individual aux'es. Haven't tried, but I could give it ago later today.

Sorry. Just a stereo network I/O, so you'll need to move stuff around and it'll be a hassle.

 

In any case, Spectre is a great program if you need excellent metering for other stuff.

No luck I'm afraid.

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You also made me curious. I never thought about that. What do you intend to do (find out), and why?

 

When you are using parallel chains as I am, phase differences in the chain will cause frequency cancellation. Most EQs cause changes in the phase of the signal (unless they are linear phase EQs). I can't use linear phase in this case because it introduces delay (compensated for by Logic) because I use these signal chains for live performance and I need to keep latency to a minimum. The phase changes caused by EQs don't necessarily happen where you'd expect. So you could for example use a high pass filter set to 100Hz in order to remove the low end from your parallel chain, but the phase shift from this will cause frequency cancellation higher up the frequency range when added to the other parallel signals. So you'd hear an unexpected loss of volume in a frequency area that wasn't obviously connected with the low cut you made with the high pass filter, yet it was the filter that caused it. Sometimes these frequency dips are not a problem, but other times they can be a major problem, if the dip happens to be in a part of the sound you want to preserve. Once you get into complex parallel processing, it can be really tricky and time consuming to try and trace down these problems. A visual representation of exactly where the frequency shifts are occurring would be a big time saver for me.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Yes sorry maybe I didn't explain clearly. I'm looking for a plugin meter/analyzer that can show me the phase shift caused by other plugins before it in the chain. So for example I put a Waves H-EQ or Eiosis Air EQ on a channel, then after that I put the analyser plugin - then as I move the EQ plugins curves, the analyser shows the phase shift. There is a VST plugin which can do this, but I can't find an AU one. Perhaps AU format does not allow this kind of communication between plugins?

 

It's an interesting question indeed. I have wondered about this at times, too. But then I kind of moved passed that curiosity stage and instead, tend yo use phase shift to my advantage wherever i can. Phase shifting isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as you watch out for your bottom end.

 

For example, if you take two different mic recording for the same guitar track and you insert a Sample Delay and shift one in relation to the other, you can open up a whole new world of tone variation, providing they were aligned in the first place. With crossovers in multibands,whether it be a C4 or something like the Vitamin, i tend to park them at a point that could use a bit of a dip in the frequency range, with eqs I'm also listening out to the positive subtractive effects it makes whenever i push ip some frequencies. You get the idea.

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For example, if you take two different mic recording for the same guitar track and you insert a Sample Delay and shift one in relation to the other, you can open up a whole new world of tone variation, providing they were aligned in the first place. With crossovers in multibands,whether it be a C4 or something like the Vitamin, i tend to park them at a point that could use a bit of a dip in the frequency range, with eqs I'm also listening out to the positive subtractive effects it makes whenever i push ip some frequencies. You get the idea.

 

Yes I do the same thing with listening for subtractive effects on parallel chains and multi mic setups. I hadn't though of placing the crossovers of multi-bands in places where I want a dip though, that's a good idea.

 

In some situations I would find it really useful to know where and by how much phase is being shifted. For me seeing the shape of the EQ curve itself could also be really useful at times. Especially when you are using multiple EQs and complicated parallel chains as I often find myself doing. In this very well done video by Dan Worrall shows some of the things which can happen in a really clear way.

If you forward to about 13 minutes he demonstrates how a high pass filter can completely remove a frequency area much higher up the spectrum. Unfortunately the plugin he uses to see the EQ curves and phase shifts is a windows only VST plugin. As far as I can tell there aren't currently any AU plugins that do it.
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For example, if you take two different mic recording for the same guitar track and you insert a Sample Delay and shift one in relation to the other, you can open up a whole new world of tone variation, providing they were aligned in the first place. With crossovers in multibands,whether it be a C4 or something like the Vitamin, i tend to park them at a point that could use a bit of a dip in the frequency range, with eqs I'm also listening out to the positive subtractive effects it makes whenever i push ip some frequencies. You get the idea.

 

Yes I do the same thing with listening for subtractive effects on parallel chains and multi mic setups. I hadn't though of placing the crossovers of multi-bands in places where I want a dip though, that's a good idea.

 

In some situations I would find it really useful to know where and by how much phase is being shifted. For me seeing the shape of the EQ curve itself could also be really useful at times. Especially when you are using multiple EQs and complicated parallel chains as I often find myself doing. In this very well done video by Dan Worrall shows some of the things which can happen in a really clear way.

If you forward to about 13 minutes he demonstrates how a high pass filter can completely remove a frequency area much higher up the spectrum. Unfortunately the plugin he uses to see the EQ curves and phase shifts is a windows only VST plugin. As far as I can tell there aren't currently any AU plugins that do it.

 

I think it's valid to want to know the effect of your eq methods has on phase shifting in an academic sense. The more you know, the more you can make informed decisions, but without the need to constantly refer to a meter.

 

You could continue to fumble around for a set of keys in the ark, or you could use a torch (flashlight) to shine on their whereabouts. After doing that a few times, you will remember where they are and you will no longer need to use torch. Not the best analogy, but it's the only one I've got right now. :lol:

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I think it's valid to want to know the effect of your eq methods has on phase shifting in an academic sense. The more you know, the more you can make informed decisions, but without the need to constantly refer to a meter.

 

You could continue to fumble around for a set of keys in the ark, or you could use a torch (flashlight) to shine on their whereabouts. After doing that a few times, you will remember where they are and you will no longer need to use torch. Not the best analogy, but it's the only one I've got right now. :lol:

 

That's a perfect analogy.

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