Mono Compatibility Question - Making a Thick, Wide Synth Patch Sound Good in Mono. Is It Possible?

Hi

I have a question about mono compatibility that I would really appreciate some help with. This is a long post and I’m sorry about that but it’s long because I’m trying to understand this stuff properly. Thanks to anyone who reads it all and especially to those of you who respond. I’ve learned a lot from helpful people on this forum. Here we go -

I understand that when you sum a stereo mix to mono, what you are hearing is the left and right sides of the mix added together to create one signal and that signal is played through both the left and right channels of your sound system. I understand that as a consequence of this, certain instruments that sound lovely and full and wide in stereo may sound phasey in mono. The illusion of width in a stereo sound is the result of the left and right sides of that sound having differences in their waveforms. For example, the waveform on the left side has a crest at the same moment that the waveform on the right side has a trough and that difference creates a spatial effect that our ears identify as width. If you sum those two sides into one channel, a lot of the differences between the left and right sides will cancel each other out to varying degrees and thus you get a compromised resultant sound in mono that lacks fullness and body.

That’s my level of understanding of this subject. I think it’s all pretty accurate but correct me if I’ve got anything wrong.

Here’s my issue. I like thick, wide synth chord patches. I use them a lot and they sound how I want them to in stereo. For example, the EXS24 patch called “Fat Synbrass”. The problem is, this type of synth patch seems to sound pretty s#!+ in mono. I want my mixes to sound good on all systems. If my mix sounds good in a stereo system but but sounds terrible played through a mono system like a phone speaker or a small kitchen radio, that’s not good enough.

So, I have three questions.

1. Firstly, I’d like to understand why patches like “Fat Synbrass” sound the way they do. What is it that makes those patches have that special particular kind of width and thickness? Clearly they have a particular kind of width because it sounds considerably wider than other stereo EXS24 patches such as “Yamaha Grand Piano”. I’d love to know exactly what is happening sonically to create that width and thickness. Obviously, based on my previously-described understanding of the illusion width, it must be that the left and right sides of the sound are very different. But how? In what way are they different?

Following on from that, a the body of a sound like “Yamaha Grand Piano” seems to be preserved pretty well when the mix is played in mono yet “Fat Synbrass” is compromised considerably. Why is this? What is it about the content of these two sounds that makes them translate to mono so differently? This is the same question I suppose, just phrased in a different way.

2. Secondly, if I want to use sounds that have the character of “Fat Synbrass” but they sound very phasey in mono, is there any solution to this problem? Is there any kind of engineering that can be done to allow me to have more or less the sound I want in stereo but also have the patch not sound so phasey in mono? Or is it just inevitable that if you want that kind of width/thickness in stereo, it’s going to sound s#!+ in mono?

I’ve thought of the solution of not using just one stereo synth that you’re relying on for width but instead layering multiple synths and placing them in different parts of the stereo field to create the sense of width. That way you create a good left/right stereo relationship by using synth sounds that complement each other and don’t cancel each other out so much when the mix is in mono. Maybe then you could retain the body and punch of the synths in mono. However, if they don’t cancel each other out so much then that must mean the left and right sides of the synth mix in stereo are not all that different and if they are not that different, then they won’t be able to achieve that sense of width I’m looking for (this is all assuming my opening explanation of width is correct). So, does this mean you simply can’t have that special wide synth sound in stereo and also have a strong translation of that sound to mono?

3. Finally, even though the piano sound translates quite well to mono in terms of punch, I notice that it gets considerably darker/duller. Does this mean that inevitably, when you sum a mix to mono you will lose high end? If so, why?

Thanks a lot for reading. Note: I've been referencing everything with headphones, not speakers as I think headphones are better for analysing width. Not sure if that's relevant but I'm just letting you know anyway.

A few thoughts. I'm glad you mentioned that you are referencing everything with headphones. They are great for getting up close inside your mix, I use them often, but with the understanding that without binaural processing* headphones create an unnatural environment for hearing especially with extreme L-R panning. In normal hearing there is rarely a situation where only one ear perceives a sound. And mono sounds seem to come from inside your head. So switching stereo to mono on headphones is throwing your perception quite a curve ball.

(*binaural direction processing is still a work in progress.)

I don't have the EXS24 "Fat Synbrass" on my laptop here but if it is like most Synth patches, it's probably like you suspect, its stereo relies on slight detuning of a patches L vs R signals. In stereo headphones a pronounced binaural beating is heard, in mono it might convert to a mis-adjusted mono flanger/phase shifter sound.

I like your idea of using two different L and R Synths, another solution might be to use this free "Wider" plugin:

https://polyversemusic.com/products/wider/

I have not tried it yet but it claims to widen without phase issues and to be fully mono compatible. You could use the "Gain" plugin to pan the instrument to whichever side sounds better before it gets to the "Wider" plugin. Let us know what you think.

I like your idea of using two different L and R Synths, another solution might be to use this free "Wider" plugin:

https://polyversemusic.com/products/wider/

 

I have not tried it yet but it claims to widen without phase issues and to be fully mono compatible. You could use the "Gain" plugin to pan the instrument to whichever side sounds better before it gets to the "Wider" plugin. Let us know what you think.

sounds like this:

https://www.voxengo.com/product/spatifier/

I don't like how either sounds tbh, it sounds chorusey/phasey. They all do.

I prefer what synths do in unisons, despite maybe some mono collapse. Who cares, it sounds like s#!+ on mono systems anyway because they're usually s#!+ speakers

A few thoughts. I'm glad you mentioned that you are referencing everything with headphones. They are great for getting up close inside your mix, I use them often, but with the understanding that without binaural processing* headphones create an unnatural environment for hearing especially with extreme L-R panning. In normal hearing there is rarely a situation where only one ear perceives a sound. And mono sounds seem to come from inside your head. So switching stereo to mono on headphones is throwing your perception quite a curve ball.

(*binaural direction processing is still a work in progress.)

 

I don't have the EXS24 "Fat Synbrass" on my laptop here but if it is like most Synth patches, it's probably like you suspect, its stereo relies on slight detuning of a patches L vs R signals. In stereo headphones a pronounced binaural beating is heard, in mono it might convert to a mis-adjusted mono flanger/phase shifter sound.

 

I like your idea of using two different L and R Synths, another solution might be to use this free "Wider" plugin:

https://polyversemusic.com/products/wider/

 

I have not tried it yet but it claims to widen without phase issues and to be fully mono compatible. You could use the "Gain" plugin to pan the instrument to whichever side sounds better before it gets to the "Wider" plugin. Let us know what you think.

Thanks for that. I'll look into that plugin and see if it helps.

What I really want to know though is if there is any way to get a wide synth patch like that to sound full in a mono mix and what exactly makes it have that a particular kind of width in stereo. I rely on that kind of sound a lot and I really want to understand it sonically.

this would be a lot easier with practical examples of what you mean

share a clip maybe?

this would be a lot easier with practical examples of what you mean

 

share a clip maybe?

Good idea.

Stereo -

Mono -

I know stereo sounds will always be compromised when a mix is summed to mono but to me this sound just gets too compromised, so much so that I think it would spoil the mix when it's heard in mono especially if that synth sound is the main sonic focus in the arrangement. If that sound is one of the main elements of the tune, the tune is going to be pretty underwhelming when played through a phone speaker for or other mono speaker for example.

So firstly, what is it about that sound that gives it that spatial effect in stereo? How come it sounds wider/more spatial than a stereo piano for example? Is it just that it’s made up of multiple layers that are slightly out of tune with each other? Note: There’s no chorus or other similar effects used on those recordings. That’s pretty much the original patch.

Secondly, are there are there any tweaks that can be made to the sound that will allow me to still have more or less the same sound in stereo as what I have now but also a more full, bright, less phasy sound in mono? There don't seem to be many options for tweaking the oscillators EXS24. Can't change the waveforms, can't change the tuning of the layers etc.

Thanks for the help

Secondly, are there are there any tweaks that can be made to the sound that will allow me to still have more or less the same sound in stereo as what I have now but also a more full, bright, less phasy sound in mono? There don't seem to be many options for tweaking the oscillators EXS24. Can't change the waveforms, can't change the tuning of the layers etc.

Yes, there is hope...

I found your EXS 24 “Fat Synbrass” patch on my other computer. Like we suspected, it is based on stereo samples of a synth patch with detuned oscillators panned extreme Left - Right. You can isolate this left vs right pitch shift with the 'Gain' plugin. Turn 'Mono' ON then turn the 'Input Balance' knob quickly all the way from left to right. Hear that one side's pitch is slightly lower? Also notice with this knob centered you get to hear the stereo detuning (converted to mono) resulting in flanging/chorusing.

The patch is made from a small group of stereo samples, key mapped across the keyboard, with each sample having a sensibly efficient loop point. Great way to capture the character of the original synth. But, with simple sampling there is this "clone" factor to deal with. Play one note repeatedly and you notice the flanging of the note begins exactly the same each time. With longer notes the loop point always repeats monotonously, exactly the same.

So...

I looked around and found a factory patch in the ES2 synth called "Analog Horns" that with a few tweaks sounds quite similar to the “Fat Synbrass” samples.

Adjust the 3 parameters (in red ovals) above.

• Turn ON the 'Unison' button.
  Turn UP (to taste) the 'Detune' macro.
  Maybe turn down 'Attack' macro slightly.

Some advantages with the advanced ES2 synth are:

• The ES2 oscillators can start each note in "Free" Osc Start mode (no more exact clone sample starts).
   
  The ES2s 'Unison' stack mode seems kinder to phase problems with mono conversions.
   
  The Detune macro not only detunes the oscillators, it also cranks the "Analog" knob which adds random detuning to each note played, which goes a long way to reducing any flanging monotony.
  

The ES2's whole "macro" concept is quite cool. I have not used it much before but in this case I can see how well thought out the multi-parameter design is. Crank a macro knob wildly back an forth to see the multi things it is doing.

Hope this helps.

Secondly, are there are there any tweaks that can be made to the sound that will allow me to still have more or less the same sound in stereo as what I have now but also a more full, bright, less phasy sound in mono? There don't seem to be many options for tweaking the oscillators EXS24. Can't change the waveforms, can't change the tuning of the layers etc.

 

Yes, there is hope...

 

I found your EXS 24 “Fat Synbrass” patch on my other computer. Like we suspected, it is based on stereo samples of a synth patch with detuned oscillators panned extreme Left - Right. You can isolate this left vs right pitch shift with the 'Gain' plugin. Turn 'Mono' ON then turn the 'Input Balance' knob quickly all the way from left to right. Hear that one side is slightly lower? Also notice with this knob centered you get to hear the stereo detuning (converted to mono) resulting in flanging/chorusing.

 

The patch is made from a small group of stereo samples, key mapped across the keyboard, with each sample having a sensibly efficient loop point. Great way to capture the character of the original synth. But, with simple sampling there is this "clone" factor to deal with. Play one note repeatedly and you notice the flanging of the note begins exactly the same each time. With longer notes the loop point always repeats monotonously, exactly the same.

 

So...

I looked around and found a factory patch in the ES2 synth called "Analog Horns" that with a few tweaks sounds quite similar to the “Fat Synbrass” samples.

 

ES2 Analog Horns.png

 

Adjust the 3 parameters (in red ovals) above.

• Turn ON the 'Unison' button.
  Turn UP (to taste) the 'Detune' macro.
  Maybe turn down 'Attack' macro slightly.

 

Some advantages with the advanced ES2 synth are:

• The ES2 oscillators can start each note in "Free" Osc Start mode (no more exact clone sample starts).
   
  The ES2s 'Unison' stack mode seems kinder to phase problems with mono conversions.
   
  The Detune macro not only detunes the oscillators, it also cranks the "Analog" knob which adds random detuning to each note played, which goes a long way to reducing any flanging monotony.
  

 

The ES2's whole "macro" concept is quite cool. I have not used it much before but in this case I can see how well thought out the multi-parameter design is. Crank a macro knob wildly back an forth to see the multi things it is doing.

 

Hope this helps.

What an answer! Fantastic. I really appreciate that. It’s brought up more questions though and I’m keen to understand all this stuff properly so if you have the time to reply again that would be great.

1. Firstly, I need to solidify my understanding of the input balance knob. When I turn it to the right in stereo, I can hear that it attenuates the left side of the signal and when you go all the way to the right the left signal is completely gone. Correct me if that’s wrong.

When mono button is on, the signal you are hearing is L + R and that signal is coming through both your left and right headphones. So with the mono button on, the signals your headphones are getting are:

Left headphone : L + R

Right headphone : L + R

When you have the mono button on and you turn the balance knob all the way to the left, the signals your headphones are getting are:

Left headphone : L

Right headphone : L

Is that all correct?

2. Now, I’ve thought about what you’ve said and I think I get what you mean. Is this the basic concept? -

The EXS24’s detuning between left and right is such that crests on one side and troughs on the other side are happening simultaneously quite often which is causing the cancellation/phasing when in mono. The ES2 has features that make the detuning between left and right less uniform and more random which means that we get less frequent cancellation and thus better mono compatibility. Is that all right?

3. What does the unison button do? To my ears, it sounds like the original patch is a mono sound and the unison button somehow makes it into a wide stereo sound. But I don’t understand why this is happening (or if this is in fact what is happening). I also don’t understand why it’s called “unison”. Seems like a strange name for this effect.

4. So the Detune knob sets the left and right out of tune with each other and Analog knob also sets the left and right out of tune with each other but does it randomly where as the Detune knob does it uniformly. Is that right? With the Analog knob, what’s random about it? Is it that the amount of detuning between left and right is a bit different each time?

Assuming my understanding of the Analog and Detune knobs are correct I’d guess that to get the best mono compatibility from a wide stereo ES2 sound, we could leave the Detune knob at 0% and rely on just the Analog knob for our detuning but while that would give us the best mono translation, the downside is that it probably won’t give us as much of a wide stereo sound as the Detune knob would because the Detune knob consistently puts every note out of tune by the same amount. I could be wrong about this though.

Unison adds another (one or more) identical note (voice) to the mix that's just a little varied, so you get "thickness" and stereo.

you could also use Direction mixer (m/s encoder) to boost the side signal a little (don't overdo it!)

Unison adds another (one or more) identical note (voice) to the mix that's just a little varied, so you get "thickness" and stereo.

 

you could also use Direction mixer (m/s encoder) to boost the side signal a little (don't overdo it!)

Thanks for the reminder Ploki, I looked further and you are correct. In the ES2 there is more than just detuning/randomizing pitch and stereo spreading 2 voices per note. The ES2 also randomizes filter cutoff settings.

Also, I mentioned above that the ES2 seemed a little kinder with converting its output to mono. This is because in Poly Unison mode the ES2 doesn't pan the doubled voices fully left-right. The odd byproduct of this (in mono) is a shortened period of time in which the combined L-R signals cancel each other out. I seem to remember some kind of mention of this somewhere in ancient texts / manuals about the ES2.

Additionally, (and this is odd trivia indeed) I noticed that placing the Direction Mixer plugin, setting the 'Input Mode' to L-R and extending fully the Spread control, extends fully L-R panning to the ES2 Poly Unison mode.

Who knew? (besides Eric C of course)

One of the things that drove us nuts with early analog synths was trying to keep them in tune. After a long warm up period we'd open them up to adjust Volt-per-octave trim pots for each oscillator (and filters). Didn't some designs had little heaters in them to keep the osc components a certain temp? We were happy when self tuning oscillators came along, then the digital osc. But gradually everyone began to notice that our new synths somehow didn't sound "Fat". Gratefully, today we often have front panel controls that allow one to dial up a degree of this (flabby?) imperfection.

What an answer! Fantastic. I really appreciate that. It’s brought up more questions though and I’m keen to understand all this stuff properly so if you have the time to reply again that would be great.

 

1. Firstly, I need to solidify my understanding of the input balance knob. When I turn it to the right in stereo, I can hear that it attenuates the left side of the signal and when you go all the way to the right the left signal is completely gone. Correct me if that’s wrong.

 

When mono button is on, the signal you are hearing is L + R and that signal is coming through both your left and right headphones. So with the mono button on, the signals your headphones are getting are:

 

Left headphone : L + R

Right headphone : L + R

 

When you have the mono button on and you turn the balance knob all the way to the left, the signals your headphones are getting are:

 

Left headphone : L

Right headphone : L

 

Is that all correct?

Yes, the Gain plugin's Input Balance knob acts similarly to the channel strip's Balance Pan control. The last thing the signal encounters here is the mono button.

2. Now, I’ve thought about what you’ve said and I think I get what you mean. Is this the basic concept? -

 

The EXS24’s detuning between left and right is such that crests on one side and troughs on the other side are happening simultaneously quite often which is causing the cancellation/phasing when in mono. The ES2 has features that make the detuning between left and right less uniform and more random which means that we get less frequent cancellation and thus better mono compatibility. Is that all right?

Yes, along with a reduced stereo width (mentioned previous post) that is a little more forgiving to mono conversion. If not today then tomorrow I will post a little tutorial about the 'Goniometer' which Logic provided for us to visualize L-R phase differences and potential mono compatibility issues.

3. What does the unison button do? To my ears, it sounds like the original patch is a mono sound and the unison button somehow makes it into a wide stereo sound. But I don’t understand why this is happening (or if this is in fact what is happening). I also don’t understand why it’s called “unison”. Seems like a strange name for this effect.

Probably comes from unison singing or unison orchestral instruments playing nearly but not exactly the same.

4. So the Detune knob sets the left and right out of tune with each other and Analog knob also sets the left and right out of tune with each other but does it randomly where as the Detune knob does it uniformly. Is that right? With the Analog knob, what’s random about it? Is it that the amount of detuning between left and right is a bit different each time?

You got it! First you can set the degree of constant chorus/detuning One synth voice has. Then the Analog knob works well to double (or in some synths triple, quadruple, or even more), then randomly further pitch shift that initial voice.

Assuming my understanding of the Analog and Detune knobs are correct I’d guess that to get the best mono compatibility from a wide stereo ES2 sound, we could leave the Detune knob at 0% and rely on just the Analog knob for our detuning but while that would give us the best mono translation, the downside is that it probably won’t give us as much of a wide stereo sound as the Detune knob would because the Detune knob consistently puts every note out of tune by the same amount. I could be wrong about this though.

With out looking, I think by default the ES2 oscillators and detuning knobs operate in mono. So I would think that the Analog knob provides the stereo detuning. Got to run, but I post again soon.

What an answer! Fantastic. I really appreciate that. It’s brought up more questions though and I’m keen to understand all this stuff properly so if you have the time to reply again that would be great.

 

1. Firstly, I need to solidify my understanding of the input balance knob. When I turn it to the right in stereo, I can hear that it attenuates the left side of the signal and when you go all the way to the right the left signal is completely gone. Correct me if that’s wrong.

 

When mono button is on, the signal you are hearing is L + R and that signal is coming through both your left and right headphones. So with the mono button on, the signals your headphones are getting are:

 

Left headphone : L + R

Right headphone : L + R

 

When you have the mono button on and you turn the balance knob all the way to the left, the signals your headphones are getting are:

 

Left headphone : L

Right headphone : L

 

Is that all correct?

 

Yes, the Gain plugin's Input Balance knob acts similarly to the channel strip's Balance Pan control. The last thing the signal encounters here is the mono button.

 

2. Now, I’ve thought about what you’ve said and I think I get what you mean. Is this the basic concept? -

 

The EXS24’s detuning between left and right is such that crests on one side and troughs on the other side are happening simultaneously quite often which is causing the cancellation/phasing when in mono. The ES2 has features that make the detuning between left and right less uniform and more random which means that we get less frequent cancellation and thus better mono compatibility. Is that all right?

 

Yes, along with a reduced stereo width (mentioned previous post) that is a little more forgiving to mono conversion. If not today then tomorrow I will post a little tutorial about the 'Goniometer' which Logic provided for us to visualize L-R phase differences and potential mono compatibility issues.

 

3. What does the unison button do? To my ears, it sounds like the original patch is a mono sound and the unison button somehow makes it into a wide stereo sound. But I don’t understand why this is happening (or if this is in fact what is happening). I also don’t understand why it’s called “unison”. Seems like a strange name for this effect.

 

Probably comes from unison singing or unison orchestral instruments playing nearly but not exactly the same.

 

4. So the Detune knob sets the left and right out of tune with each other and Analog knob also sets the left and right out of tune with each other but does it randomly where as the Detune knob does it uniformly. Is that right? With the Analog knob, what’s random about it? Is it that the amount of detuning between left and right is a bit different each time?

 

You got it! First you can set the degree of constant chorus/detuning One synth voice has. Then the Analog knob works well to double (or in some synths triple, quadruple, or even more), then randomly further pitch shift that initial voice.

 

Assuming my understanding of the Analog and Detune knobs are correct I’d guess that to get the best mono compatibility from a wide stereo ES2 sound, we could leave the Detune knob at 0% and rely on just the Analog knob for our detuning but while that would give us the best mono translation, the downside is that it probably won’t give us as much of a wide stereo sound as the Detune knob would because the Detune knob consistently puts every note out of tune by the same amount. I could be wrong about this though.

 

With out looking, I think by default the ES2 oscillators and detuning knobs operate in mono. So I would think that the Analog knob provides the stereo detuning. Got to run, but I post again soon.

Great

Hypothetcially speaking, if you got that synth as audio in a mix, is there anything you could do to the audio to make the synth translate better to mono or is there no saving it once it's printed to audio?

Also, I noticed that inverting the phase of one side of the synth seems to make it sound better in mono.