Re-create piano sound: sustain issue

Hi,

I used to own an old upright piano that sounded amazing. It had a rich, huge sound when you used the sustain pedal all the way. Now, I want to re-create that piano sound in LPX. I found a plug-in called Addictive Keys that does a very good job doing that, except for "the huge, rich sustain pedal sound" that I am looking for. I've tried all the reverb plug-ins from LPX, used many different pre-sets and also I tried creating the sound from scratch in those plug-ins, but to no avail. When I add reverb, the attack of the piano is gone. Maybe this is what always happens when you add reverb, but it doesn't has to be like that, I know this because my old piano did not have that problem. Also, adding reverb didn't give me that rich, huge sound. It gets kind of a "misty" ambient sound, which I'm not looking for.

Solution-wise I was thinking maybe a ADSR/Envelope plug-in so that I can expand the release of the midi-notes I played in. But I can't find such plug-in. The Enveloper in LPX does not give enough release.

I really hope somebody can give me some advise. Thank you.

That rich sound is (also) from the other (unplayed) strings resonating to the second and third harmonics of the played strings. Reverb does not really recreate that. What you need is a sampled piano with such resonance built in. Many 3rd party piano's (most are not standalone, but have to be loaded into Kontakt, which is really the industry standard for realistically sampled instruments) do provide that.

Any sort of envelope-shaper will not really remedy if the attack is lost, the more you tamper with the sampled sound, the more it is degraded.

However, if you apply reverb you really shouldn't lose attack - sounds to me like you are not applying it, but drowning the thing in it. You should always mix in dry signal - in fact, dry signal should be 100 % with reverb added to it.

That rich sound is (also) from the other (unplayed) strings resonating to the second and third harmonics of the played strings. Reverb does not really recreate that. What you need is a sampled piano with such resonance built in. Many 3rd party piano's (most are not standalone, but have to be loaded into Kontakt, which is really the industry standard for realistically sampled instruments) do provide that.

Any sort of envelope-shaper will not really remedy if the attack is lost, the more you tamper with the sampled sound, the more it is degraded.

However, if you apply reverb you really shouldn't lose attack - sounds to me like you are not applying it, but drowning the thing in it. You should always mix in dry signal - in fact, dry signal should be 100 % with reverb added to it.

Thank you for your input. Looks like the best solution is to buy a piano application from Kontakt.

An envelope-shaper maybe not ideal I would really like to try it before spending money. Do you have a suggestion? I couldn't find any.

I should clarify, I actually am going for that piano-drowning-in-sustain-sound. But ofcourse not so much sustain/reverb that you cannot distinguish what instrument is being drowned.

I've tried applying reverb with a 100% dry signal. I still couldn't get the sound I wanted.

It is very hard to "feel" what sound you are going for just from words. Could you perhaps link to on online example that is close to what you want?

Yes I get that. Here's a youtube link with a photo of the actual piano.

I think we need to differentiate sustain from resonance from reverb. Reverb will not add sustain, but possibly a weak illusion of that. The problem is to get it sustain-llke means it will wash over successive notes making things muddy.

The built-in pianos in LPX don't seem to have resonance (undamped adjacent strings vibrating sympathetically) which may be what you're going for. I think Native Instruments pianos do have that. I prefer that sweet soprano-voice of The Grandeur, but they also have an upright or two.

But pianos don't really have much sustain, due to them being a hammer striking a string, which does not sustain much.

One solution might be compression. I use the LPX Studio FET at just under 12:1 with an attack of 15.5 (preserves the attack) and a release of 51, which sort of artificially extends the release. That helps. Set the threshold for about 5 dB.

I also mix in the patch 'Electrics Harmonics' about 7 dB under. That's the harmonics of a Rhodes type piano, but it does not change the sound of the acoustic Steinway at all, just the release. It gives a hall-reverb like quality but without the washover (it stops when the key is released).

You don't really say if you're using cc64(midi sustain) to achieve the sound you're after ?

What exactly do you mean? And how?

You don't really say if you're using cc64(midi sustain) to achieve the sound you're after ?

 

What exactly do you mean? And how?

Create a software instrument track, load a stock piano patch, e.g. Steinway Grand, open "musical typing" and press the "tab" key while playing some notes. The "tab" key uses midi cc64 (=midi sustain)and sends it to the piano. Hth...