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Intermodulation distortion?


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Today I learned something new... I've seen this a few times in the past, but I've never really read/watched anything about it and today my mind was blown away by the difference in sound when there's intermodulation distortion happening. Just WOW!

 

So anyone experienced with this:

Is there a way to reduce this when distorting a source so it doesn't really affect the sound negatively?

Are there distortion plugins that are better than others at dealing with this?

 

Again, I understand the concept and I understand when that happens and when it doesn't (for example if I distort 2 different notes separately vs distorting them together, the first option gives me a cleaner sound). My question is: is there a way to avoid this when distorting them together? Are there distortion plugins that handle this in a pleasant way?

 

Below I'm sharing the 2 different scenarios with a C and an E (sine waves) playing together. Image 1: separate track, one note per track, one distortion unit per track. Image 2, 1 single track with a region playing both notes together and one distortion unit distorting them both.

 

Also: in a mixing context, is there something that you guys do to avoid adding this nastiness to the overall sound? I mean, does this affect the way you approach EQs, compressors, saturations, etc? Happy to know more about this :)

 

Project: Intermodulation Distortion (Project).zip

 

1.thumb.png.6604e946e3ea4b7ae5fc1f177ad44058.png

2.thumb.png.efcf127c32adca7a621c8ebbb9ae8835.png

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Though it doesn't answer your question (reducing IM within a single source), I find myself sometimes recording multiple single-note distorted guitar parts instead of a single recording of the same multiple strings just to avoid the IM nasties, and get a smoother blend. So I will also be interested in hearing about single source solutions...
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Though it doesn't answer your question (reducing IM within a single source), I find myself sometimes recording multiple single-note distorted guitar parts instead of a single recording of the same multiple strings just to avoid the IM nasties, and get a smoother blend. So I will also be interested in hearing about single source solutions...

 

Yes recording separate notes fixes this. It just sucks that you need to do that all the time haha

 

I mean for parts that really need that smooth sound, it’s worth it :)

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Gonna be honest: I know about aliasing and how to avoid them (oversampling/higher sampling rate) but this is the first time I actually heard about intermodulation distortion.

 

So I'm interested to learn more about this as well.

 

Yeah I saw that before in discussions but never really paid attention. But when I saw a video with audio examples I’ve decided to try it myself and the difference is HUGE. You can try it yourself and you will listen how nasty it can become. And not only that but all the extra frequencies that will be clouding your mix and taking headroom

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Okay, I've tried it myself.

 

The difference of putting a compressor on a track VS on a summing/master bus is HUGE, the sound it produces is not even subtle.

 

But, but.. I personally like the sound of a compressor on the summing/master bus although the eq graph clearly shows I'm adding extra harmonics below the fundamental frequencies.

 

Maybe I do have a terrible taste in tone generator =(

 

Anyways, if this is a normal occurrence in mixing, and can't be avoided (I looked around for ways to avoid it, nothing came up), I think the best a mixer can do is to hear whether he likes the sound of a distortion producing plugin (compressor, limiter,saturator etc) on the summing/master bus and adjust the distortion accordingly?

 

Because the more I look into this, the more I tend to think this is a normal occurrence in mixing and nothing much we can do about it?

 

Or is there?

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Okay, I've tried it myself.

 

The difference of putting a compressor on a track VS on a summing/master bus is HUGE, the sound it produces is not even subtle.

 

But, but.. I personally like the sound of a compressor on the summing/master bus although the eq graph clearly shows I'm adding extra harmonics below the fundamental frequencies.

 

Maybe I do have a terrible taste in tone generator =(

 

Anyways, if this is a normal occurrence in mixing, and can't be avoided (I looked around for ways to avoid it, nothing came up), I think the best a mixer can do is to hear whether he likes the sound of a distortion producing plugin (compressor, limiter,saturator etc) on the summing/master bus and adjust the distortion accordingly?

 

Because the more I look into this, the more I tend to think this is a normal occurrence in mixing and nothing much we can do about it?

 

Or is there?

 

This is more noticeable when you add real distortion to it, not a compressor.

And the difference is not when you have like drums and all that. The difference when you have for example 2 notes playing at the same time, let’s say a C and an E. Try that with 2 synths playing sine waves. One option is adding real distortion to each and then create a single track with them playing together with only one distortion unit. You will hear a huge difference

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Okay, I've tried it myself.

 

The difference of putting a compressor on a track VS on a summing/master bus is HUGE, the sound it produces is not even subtle.

 

But, but.. I personally like the sound of a compressor on the summing/master bus although the eq graph clearly shows I'm adding extra harmonics below the fundamental frequencies.

 

Maybe I do have a terrible taste in tone generator =(

 

Anyways, if this is a normal occurrence in mixing, and can't be avoided (I looked around for ways to avoid it, nothing came up), I think the best a mixer can do is to hear whether he likes the sound of a distortion producing plugin (compressor, limiter,saturator etc) on the summing/master bus and adjust the distortion accordingly?

 

Because the more I look into this, the more I tend to think this is a normal occurrence in mixing and nothing much we can do about it?

 

Or is there?

 

I've just updated my original post and included the Logic project, if you want to just listen to it without recreating the whole thing ;)

Listen to that and tell me if that's still a choice of the mixer to deal with that nastiness haha

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Like this?

 

Test.zip

 

(distortion on a track VS master bus)

 

Because i can hear the difference, this is what i wrote:

 

 

...The difference of putting a compressor on a track VS on a summing/master bus is HUGE, the sound it produces is not even subtle.

 

yes like that.

what I meant was that you were talking about a compressor and unless you really push that compressor to hyper extreme levels, the distortion level will not be that noticeable (if at all) compared to a distortion unit that's really distorting the sound for real.

you said you like the sound of a compressor on the master bus, which was not exactly what I was referring to when bringing this subject of Intermodulation Distortion, hence my reply :)

 

but yes, your example is exactly the effect the distortion has on a group of notes, which when you think you have lots of things in a track and maybe you are using only 1 distorion unit to affect them all, maybe that's making the mix sound worse.

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I have golden ears and I can hear even tiny distortion in a compressor.

 

Kidding! Obviously I pushed the compressor to the max when I did the test myself =P

 

Anyways, as a team EnVerb from your EnVerb vs Space Designer with David, I still think Intermodulation Distortion is unavoidable in the context of mixing and the sound enhancing processes with distortion producing plugins in the summing/master busses.

 

It can be made less noticeable, but can't be avoided.

 

But, obviously I would love to be proven wrong, that's what I'm here for : to learn more about this.

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I have golden ears and I can hear even tiny distortion in a compressor.

 

Kidding! Obviously I pushed the compressor to the max when I did the test myself =P

 

Anyways, as a team EnVerb from your EnVerb vs Space Designer with David, I still think Intermodulation Distortion is unavoidable in the context of mixing and the sound enhancing processes with distortion producing plugins in the summing/master busses.

 

It can be made less noticeable, but can't be avoided.

 

But, obviously I would love to be proven wrong, that's what I'm here for : to learn more about this.

 

I think for now, what I take from this is that it's better to work on the source as much as possible when it comes to distortion, instead of groups/busses. If any distortion is necessary in a group/bus, then it should be very subtle.

 

And now, it's all about experimenting on my next mixes to see the differences ;)

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.. If any distortion is necessary in a group/bus, then it should be very subtle.)

 

Yeah, that's my take too. I agree with you on this 100%.

 

Although I'm still team EnVerb :wink:

 

Imagine telling a mastering engineer who has 40 years of experience and countless Grammys and say "I do not want a single percentage of intermodulation distortion at all in my master, I heard its bad" he would just tell me to go somewhere else because I listen to the internet too much and I suck at understanding the musical context and its enhancement in audio mastering.

 

Mastering in general introduces a bunch of nonlinear processes that further results in more intermodulation distortion, in general.

 

They (the mastering engineers) just do it tastefully, and musical.

 

 

And now, it's all about experimenting on my next mixes to see the differences ;)

 

I dare you use EnVerb in your next mix.

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