ski Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Rev, your sarcasm meters are quite on the money, though I wasn't being sarcastic (for once). Read on! To begin with... Sacsha, I agree with your sentiments soooo much. I hate the new model. The idea of being required to download a professional application and its various components is about as bogus a concept as could possibly be conceived, especially for the professional user. More on this shortly. But first... It is a fact that you don't have to be in a 3rd world country to find yourself lacking in good internet connectivity. There are thousands of areas in the US alone where the only form of Internet connection is via satellite-based or low-speed DSL (if they have any at all). Various politicians have made noises about this over the years, championing the cause of bringing Internet to rural areas. Now, when it comes to satellite connectivity, if the weather is bad or there's simply heavy cloud cover, say goodbye to the Internet (let alone TV) until the weather clears. In the US and Europe, where both my wife have toured extensively, the Internet connections in hotels is often horrendous. Now, how many people are going to download the latest version of Logic from an impermanent hotel room, especially on tour where no one should be updating Logic for tour use anyway? Prolly not many. The point is this: Internet is not as reliable nor widespread as the current model assumes. Furthermore, Internet goes down from time to time, blackouts happen, and hard drives go bad. I'd hate to be in the position where my system drive crapped out in the middle of a project and not have access to disks to do a re-install Logic. Speaking of which... I'd be curious to know if, per the disc-based method of software installation, whether or not the EULA will still allow users to install one copy on a desktop and one on a laptop. In terms of how ecologically sound (or not) the new format is, my feeling is that if you posed the question to two economists, they'd come up with two wholly different answers: one would say that the overall savings in plastic and paper justified the model. The other would say that the plastic+paper savings were offset by the resources consumed by customers adapting to the new model. My personal feeling is that any "green" claims that Apple associates with this new model would be misleading and self-serving at best. Clearly everyone must realize the inconvenience of not having hardcopy of both software installer and manual. There's also a privacy component to this which I don't believe has been mentioned before. I can't imagine a single justifiable reason why my software purchases must be so thoroughly logged by the company I purchase it from. Accepting this new model implies an acceptance of an invasion of privacy by a company who makes it compulsory to share personal information with them -- simply to buy something they make! Apple is merely a company. They're not the government, and they're not your mother. Therefore they are not entitled to do anything other than make a product, entice you to buy it, and collect the money you paid for what you purchased from them. Apple, as a company, has always exhibited control freak tendencies. This model pushes those tendencies to new and uncomfortable limits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 For those concerned about multiple downloads, installing on 'other' Macs etc, perhaps this will help? http://support.apple.com/kb/HT5061 CCT, could you please translate the cryptically worded, military-speak of that article into real world terms? It's not clear to me if installing Logic on multiple machines requires the purchase of a volume license (or not). Regards, Ski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha Franck Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 You lost me here. Apple can almost certainly AppStore applications onto your machine for you, the geniuses do this all the time. So I need to have my machine with me. As adventurous as anything else. Native Instruments/ilok style apps etc allow you to register their apps through a 2nd computer - why can't we do this with Logic 9.1.6 without having to network our studio Macs? Because Apple doesn't allow you to do such a trivial thing. It's their understanding of "think different" (yuck...). For those concerned about multiple downloads, installing on 'other' Macs etc, perhaps this will help? http://support.apple.com/kb/HT5061 All that still requires a network connection. And a second Mac to start with. - Sascha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCTMusic Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Ski I'd be delighted..... In a nutshell, you don't need to download the AppStore version to each particular Mac. Basically it says that you can use Remote Desktop, Net Install or NetRestore to "install" Logic on multiple (other) Macs.... probably just a fancy "copy the App" ... I'll check later today. It points out that this method only works for copies of Logic Pro that you bought on the AppStore, not the one you installed from the DVD's It also say that "if you purchased a volume license"... which should mean that you do not have to have a volume license. There you go... clear as mud CCt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Rev, your sarcasm meters are quite on the money, though I wasn't being sarcastic (for once). Ah, but you were! Because you don't really want to be assimilated at all! Therefore... *MALFUNCTION OF UNIT "SKI", UNABLE TO ASSIMILATE. ORDER TERMINATION OF UNIT "SKI".* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 In terms of how ecologically sound (or not) the new format is, my feeling is that if you posed the question to two economists, they'd come up with two wholly different answers Absolutely. Trees can be re-planted, and forests can be managed responsibly. The heat and CO2 generated by constant accessing of Apple's servers to read documentation cannot be undone. There's also a privacy component to this which I don't believe has been mentioned before. I can't imagine a single justifiable reason why my software purchases must be so thoroughly logged by the company I purchase it from. Accepting this new model implies an acceptance of an invasion of privacy by a company who makes it compulsory to share personal information with them -- simply to buy something they make! I wholeheartedly agree, it is ridiculous to the point of downright suspicious, bordering on the scary. Apple is merely a company. They're not the government, and they're not your mother. Maybe they're planning ahead... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beej Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 I'd be curious to know if, per the disc-based method of software installation, whether or not the EULA will still allow users to install one copy on a desktop and one on a laptop. I *think* all AppStore licenses are multi-machine (ie, the owner can install and use them on all machines thy own), but I'd need to check on that... I'm not sure whether the standard Logic license agreement has changed, I expect it's still the same, but not sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beej Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 So I need to have my machine with me. As adventurous as anything else. No, there are other ways, such as taking in a USB or hard drive, or I'm sure even getting Apple to burn stuff on disks if you *really* need to. From what I've seen, the geniuses can be fairly accomodating. If you want to make this a big deal and argue that every option is bad, well, then how have you updated from Logic 9.0.0 - presumably you've downloaded them from the internet, and moved them to your non-internet production machines - and there still seems to be ways to do this, if necessary, as has been already posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blinkofani Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 OMG, Sascha Frank found our forum!! That guy(or girl, i don't know) like to trash Logic everytime he/she can on GearSlutz fora. Whatever you say, that person will find a way to bash Logic or Apple. I suggest you just don't reply. But it's your life, you do what you want with it. Blink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n6smith Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 I can confirm that, at least in the case of my local Apple Store, they will and often do.. download and copy over to a USB drive.. anything you ask them to download for you from the App Store. In my particular location until very recently, the only internet connection was by ISDN at best and more commonly by Dial-up or by 'Satellite' which for all intent and purpose in real world usage.. might as well be dial up given the usage limits they have in place. Trying to download a large app such as Logic via such slow internet connections isn't practical or realistic... so the Apple Store acknowledges this and provides this service if/when asked because of this fact... Personally, I prefer to buy a physical item I can go and pick up at the local store or buy over the phone... but I can see how this simply isn't going to be the case in the future... and so having a reasonably fast internet connection is becoming a requirement.. just as having a certain minimum computer configuration is a requirement... Just a fact of modern life... like it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 ...so having a reasonably fast internet connection is becoming a requirement.. just as having a certain minimum computer configuration is a requirement... Just a fact of modern life... like it or not. Although buying a computer doesn't ever mean having to move house. Seems a tad harsh if the attitude is that someone with a rural studio might have to uproot their family and essentially become an economic migrant, just so that they can use the latest software. I know that you're not advocating this, and my example above is extreme and unlikely to happen, and you're right about it becoming a fact of life an' all, but still... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCTMusic Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 I'd be curious to know if, per the disc-based method of software installation, whether or not the EULA will still allow users to install one copy on a desktop and one on a laptop. I *think* all AppStore licenses are multi-machine (ie, the owner can install and use them on all machines thy own), but I'd need to check on that... I'm not sure whether the standard Logic license agreement has changed, I expect it's still the same, but not sure... Hi The License agreement can be found via the AppStore page for Logic 9.1.6: The important bits are here: CCT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n6smith Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Although buying a computer doesn't ever mean having to move house. Well... it kind of becomes one part of the whole decision process of where to buy/move to/live if the internet is an essential part of your work/life... If you ask a realtor up here, most will tell you that one of the first questions they get asked about a home, when showing it to a potential buyer is "Whats the internet speed like?" Thankfully, in July a local company started to provide a decent 8Mb/sec HSI cable connection to this locale... and with a bit of bartering taking place between them and myself.. I got them to run a cable up to the top of my mountain so I'm all sorted out net-wise these days... but it was reaching the point where I was asking myself.."Should I move to a different location.. if HSI isn't coming to this area in the near'ish future?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Thanks CCT! From the legal bit linked to in your screenshot: (ii) If you are a commercial enterprise or educational institution, you may download a Mac App Store Product for use by either (a) a single individual on each of the Mac Computer(s) used by that individual that you own or control or (b) multiple individuals on a single shared Mac Computer that you own or control. For example, a single employee may use a Mac App Store Product on both the employee’s desktop Mac Computer and laptop Mac Computer, or multiple students may serially use a Mac App Store Product on a single Mac Computer located at a resource center or library. For the sake of clarity, each Mac Computer used serially by multiple users requires a separate license. A little hard to fathom, but at least the bit about running a single license on a desktop and a laptop's been answered. I think. Clear as mud again CCT? On a more humorous note... If you are 13 or older but under the age of 18, you should review this Agreement with your parent or guardian to make sure that you and your parent or guardian understand it. So to be clear, a 13 year old needs to make sure that their parent/guardian understands it. Hmmm... Anyone ever see the movie "Children of the Corn"? Finally... a little social commentary decidedly not directed towards Nigel (whom I've quoted below) but there will be those for whom the shoe fits: Just a fact of modern life... like it or not. Meek and obedient you follow the leader Down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel - from Pink Floyd, "Sheep" (Animals) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Although buying a computer doesn't ever mean having to move house. Well... it kind of becomes one part of the whole decision process of where to buy/move to/live if the internet is an essential part of your work/life... Yeah, but if you're living with a partner and/or children, then the decision might not be so clear cut, depending on their work/schooling. Moving house is not such a big deal for the self-employed who's work is not tied to any specific locality. I don't know what the labour market is like in the US right now, but in the UK we've got an average of 5.7 people applying for each job vacancy. This makes it a very bad time to change one's job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n6smith Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Meek and obedient you follow the leader Down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel - from Pink Floyd, "Sheep" (Animals) Great quote Ski! Excuse me while I google the best route to take to get to the valley!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 So to be clear, a 13 year old needs to make sure that their parent/guardian understands it. So if you're under 13 you're good to go without parental approval? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruari Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 I don't know what the labour market is like in the US right now, but in the UK we've got an average of 5.7 people applying for each job vacancy. This makes it a very bad time to change one's job. It's worse than that in the North East, we've got something like 11% unemployment according to last months figures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 The under-13 crowd are (apparently) the demographic steering the ship for Apple, so they have carte blanche. Nigel, if you're flying into LAX, take the 405 north to the 101 north and get off at [location redacted due to security concerns] and come visit me in The Valley any day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha Franck Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 No, there are other ways, such as taking in a USB or hard drive, or I'm sure even getting Apple to burn stuff on disks if you *really* need to. From what I've seen, the geniuses can be fairly accomodating. If you want to make this a big deal and argue that every option is bad, well, then how have you updated from Logic 9.0.0 - presumably you've downloaded them from the internet, and moved them to your non-internet production machines - and there still seems to be ways to do this, if necessary, as has been already posted. Ok, let's see. But, first off: So far, it is absolutely unclear to me whether you need internet access on a machine tied to your Apple ID to even get the installation started. The link posted before (about how to transfer Logic to another system) seems to suggest that. In case that is the truth, there's *no* way to install Logic on a computer without internet access (or at least network access to another Mac you own, with Logic already installed. If it's really like that, it's highly unprofessional - but we can't be sure yet, I think. Anyway, let's for now suggest you can still install Logic without net(work) access. You're walking into an Apple store and talk to one of their geniuses. Fine. Soooo, let's have a look: - Library/Audio/Apple Loops - Library/Audio/Impulse Responses - Library/Application Support/Logic/Channel Strip Settings - Library/Application Support/Logic/Chord Grids - Library/Application Support/Logic/EXS Factory Samples - Library/Application Support/Logic/Key Commands - Library/Application Support/Logic/Plug-In Settings - Library/Application Support/Logic/Project Templates - Library/Application Support/Logic/Sampler Instruments - Library/Application Support/Logic/Tuning Tables - Library/Application Support/Logic/Ultrabeat Samples - Library/Application Support/GarageBand/Instrument Library Do you think your Apple geniuses will know about all these locations? And if so, will they be able to explain to you where to put these files? In addition, there's some preferences (that I can't be bothered to look up right now), some of them certainly needed in case you ust copy the application and the "direct" support files listed above. I doubt that much workers in Apple shops, genius or not, would be able to really help you. And as said, so far it looks to me as if you absolutely need internet access for an initial install using your Apple ID. - Sascha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 [Anyway, let's for now suggest you can still install Logic without net(work) access. You're walking into an Apple store and talk to one of their geniuses. Fine.Soooo, let's have a look: - Library/Audio/Apple Loops - Library/Audio/Impulse Responses... ...Do you think your Apple geniuses will know about all these locations? And if so, will they be able to explain to you where to put these files? Um, maybe I've missed something, but wouldn't they just give you a .dmg with an installer package script on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenriYonet Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Well if it’s just about price, then take my advice and get REAPER, if not that then Studio One. In fact if you’re not going to use Pro Tools then get anything you like, but don’t just leap into bed with Apple because they just made Logic cheaper - if you are really desperate to get a copy of Logic there are plenty of FREE copies lurking in dark places on the web. However, take a trip around 90% of top recording studios and post houses and they will be using Pro Tools, you might not like that, but it’s a fact. So if you just want to work in isolation, as is the case for most Final Cut X owners these days, then choosing an industry standard product is not important. Wow! What a well thought out, and VERY defensive message from the PT people. The truth is that of COURSE they're scared...Logic is an amazingly powerful program, and very generous in what it offers you right 'out of the box' Also, Final Cut pretty much destroyed the Avid editing platform, so isn't it clear that the PT user base is being slowly eroded as well? For now however, if you are truly working on the Pro level in audio post, you do need PT to be compatible...they really do have the lock on that in every big film and mixing studio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 I really don't understand why anyone would get defensive, or think they have to show any kind of loyalty toward whatever company makes the software they use. Why can't we all just get along? Surely the mature response is to use the Logical Tools for the job-in-hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenriYonet Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Rev. Juda$ - that's absolutely correct, and a very reasonable response...the first thought that comes to mind though is that when paychecks and livelihoods are at stake, people get nervous. If everyone left PT, an enormous industry and infrastructure would collapse... Such is the way of world...Empires come and go... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Huh? If (say) Avid went belly-up, people would continue to work on their existing PT rigs for YEARS to come. The only change that those users would experience is an upgrade path of zero. Eventually, some other developer(s) would fill the gap. But certainly the "industry" wouldn't collapse if Avid was no more. Regarding "infrastructure", what is that? Well, it's a room, a computer, mics and speakers. Not sure how Avid going belly up would affect the integrity of all of that stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenriYonet Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Hahha...let me clarify...Avid (the video editing software, not the company) was decimated by FCP. As far as industries and infrastructure, I'm talking about all the employees at Avid who work on, sell, develop, instruct, etc with PT. You know how these things go: it is a long, slow slide downhill when a big company starts losing market share...I'm not saying this is happening to PT, but I have been observing a clear 'update' competition coming from the PT people - (too many parallel features to mention here). If PT announced that they wouldn't be doing any more upgrading or support, people would be jumping ship from that platform like rats from a burning pirate frigate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenriYonet Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Oh...if (say) Avid DID go belly up, the first thing Apple would do is to make some OSX updates to render that software obsolete (might take a year)...drivers would need to be updated, hardware would stop working well...pushing those PT people more quickly into oblivion, and pulling them over to LS. I don't think I'm being horribly cynical about business...that's just how the game seems to be played... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 ...I'm talking about all the employees at Avid who work on, sell, develop, instruct, etc with PT. Sure, employees have a stake in the future of their respective companies, but most of what I see on the net is moronic cheerleading, mostly not even from professionals, for whatever DAW they happen to use, and lots of "yah-boo!" for anything they don't use. Doesn't make any sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 If everyone left PT, an enormous industry and infrastructure would collapse... ...and... If PT announced that they wouldn't be doing any more upgrading or support, people would be jumping ship from that platform like rats from a burning pirate frigate... What you're saying carries with it the implication that people who work in the music business are rats! So please, let's leave honesty out of the discussion and move on... What you said carries with it the implication that people who work on a particular platform/DAW combo do so only in light of future support and upgrades. I can't imagine established engineers, producers, and post people suddenly canceling their sessions because Avid went under. Imagine if Apple went under today. Would that stop you from working? Prolly not. Life goes on in the midst of change, and the demise (hypothetical or not) of any one musical technology developer won't stop people from doing their creative thing(s) while, in the meantime, investigate alternatives. Then again, some people don't feel the need to investigate alternatives at all. I recently did a mix with an engineer running PT on a G4 with OS 9.2. Speakers: original NS-10's. Result: one of the best mixes I've heard in a long time. Goes to show you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenriYonet Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Rev: yep, the yay-boo thing sure does happen a lot...I see it mostly in sports, politics and religion...(and I am NOT starting a debate about any of those topics) It is mindless and ridiculous. And very self-limiting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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