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Using Logic Pro X MIDI-FX plug-ins


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Apple's decision not to implement Audio Unit's have midi out is unfortunate.. Real Guitar's products output the individual strumming and note picking, which would have been extremely helpful to assign to other instruments, alternative virtual instruments.

 

Their crap of dragging out a bar at a time is weak..

 

An approach to try is assign random pitch to notes, and pitch quantize to proper scale or for the particular chord that is being played.

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It plainly states in one or two of Apple's own documents, midi out was not implemented. Is this Audio Units V3?

 

I tried to get AU's MIDI out via IAC to work. Got no results, weird results, with overhanging notes, unacceptable timing errors, etc.

I googled the solutions, tried to follow the instructions, when it didn't work. I called Apple I was told it wasn't possible, finally one high up tech, was told it was beyond the level of support they offered. When I pay for a product I want it to work, not rely on 'work arounds'..

 

Scripting is beyond my 'working boundaries'. It is easier to take logic's midi track, put it into another DAW with VST plug-ins and get the midi out that way..Or just take the time, and write in arpeggio notes myself.

 

On further discussions, Apple tech's responded, with some 3rd party plug-in companies, don't strictly comply with with Apple specs.. So neither Apple is going help. I know of two 3rd party developers, and they are sick of Apples changes to spec with little to no notices, and they are not going to spend days rewriting their code to satisfy the ghost of Steve Job's ego.

 

My main goal is to create music, I no longer stop to master or psych out eccentricities in code writing.. I need to get the music out.

 

I do appreciate your response however.. I'll keep my eyes open, perhaps some developers will write the script necessary, or is out there already?.. Sometimes I just slow the tempo down, record the arpegiatted or sequenced midi out of a 3rd party plug-in.. Run it thru melodyne, It gets most of notes right, I fix those necessary. Put tempo back to normal, and use with another virtual instrument..

 

At least the good thing about Logic, like Photoshop, is that there are usually a couple or more ways to arrive at a solution.

 

Don't mean to sound old, angry and bitter, but hey some days I am..

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It plainly states in one or two of Apple's own documents, midi out was not implemented.

Can you post a link to the Apple documentation that you're referring too.

 

Is this Audio Units V3?

Yes, AU3 supports MIDI out, AU doesn't. You make it sound like AU instruments are suppose to have MIDI out which that won't.

AU3 is totally different way of creating Audio Units.

Which are you programming for, AU or AU3?

 

Since Logic Pro X 10.3.1, AU3 has been available. It's now up to developers to create AU3 instruments.

Again, you have to write a AU3 program to support MIDI out.

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So from a MIDI source I generate a piano MIDI using MIDI-FX plugs.

Then from that piano MIDI, I generate a bass MIDI using MIDI-FX plug-ins.

 

Another thing to experiment with regarding the MIDI-FX plug-ins is the order. You get some cool results depending which MIDI-FX plug-in comes before other MIDI-FX plug-ins.

 

... and only Logic Pro X instruments are used.

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Apple's decision not to implement Audio Unit's have midi out is unfortunate.. Real Guitar's products output the individual strumming and note picking, which would have been extremely helpful to assign to other instruments, alternative virtual instruments.

 

Their crap of dragging out a bar at a time is weak..

 

An approach to try is assign random pitch to notes, and pitch quantize to proper scale or for the particular chord that is being played.

 

I hear you about Apple and AU midi. There is a work around but you have to buy a 3rd party product. BlueCatAudio Patchwork, for example, comes in a AU-MFX version that can be hosted in a Logic midi fx slot. And inside that plugin you can subhost a normal AU/VST plugin that happens to output midi. Yes, BlueCatAudio is able to get the output midi from the AU somehow! You can also subhost a VST plugin inside there, which officially does support output midi. In this way you can put RealGuitar into a midifx slot in logic and do what you want with it from there. Typically use the External Instrument plugin in the instrument slot to send the midi output over IAC back around into Logic again and feed it to whatever instruments you want.

 

In some other hosts, such as DP, midi is sometimes available from AU plugins. So I do not understand exactly why Apple "officially" says AU's can't output midi, because they can, for the hosts that look for it, but since Apple doesn't officially support that, then Logic doesn't either.

 

The bigger problem in logic is that channel objects do not allow midi that is created inside any plugins on that channel, to be passed out of the channel object through the environment cabling, etc. This is probably due to the fact that it assumes AU's can't output midi, so it doesn't even look for it. And if a midifx generates midi, it is passed to the instrument AU on that channel object, but again, logic ignores it after there and doesn't let it get out of the channel object.

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There are a few plug-ins which make really great guitar picking audio out. Music Labs stuff. a couple of UVI guitars. Problem is. Sometimes the guitar sound themselves are not exactly what you need, in a particular song or your want to double the guitar picking with another instrument.. Can be a truly beautiful sound. Since the VSTS can do it. i got very upset Apple chose not to implement this function for what ever reason. In my opinion it could be a very valuable tools

 

Having so many other issues in my life of heavier consequence to get bitter and angry over, I gave up on Apple ever doing that. Their lame, round about attempts to take midi out of Audio-units, does not produce very desirable results for me. I've spoken with the guitar virtual makers mentioned, and they've given up on AU and moved on to other issues.. A few companies, are just not going to deal with Apples decisions to change or create code spec changes, and arrogantly think these companies are going to jump like trained dogs to satisfy them. Their response to me, was simply to 'get a better Daw'.

 

I found and figured out some great midi picking patterns, and import them into a track, and hand transpose them to fit current chord, and mode for each bar in song where needed. A huge time waster..

 

At this point in my life I try not to get upset over things I can't change.. A couple of complaints to the Logic writers, and I've moved on to more pleasant subjects..

 

Vallisoftware - I applaud you for your experimentation in this area. The musical results are of no doubt interesting to some people. Keep up your explorations.

 

Moving on.. Discussions like this forwarded to Apple is the only way change might come. If enough people want a feature, Apple eventually will come around.. I'm still waiting for a 'chord track' but have pretty much given up on that. You could jury right Logic 9 to create a chord track to use in Score editor, (had consequences, but at least you didn't have to sit there and transcribe 100 or more measure of chord changes.

 

Logic users are extremely varied in how and what kind of music they make, so for many I guess, this is a total non issue. It's the squeaky wheel that gets oiled.

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Angelonyc, check out bluecataudio patchworks, as I mentioned earlier; it sounds like it would save you a lot of time.

 

Regarding Apple I agree. I have submitted feature requests to them directly several times in this area of interest, suggest you do the same but in the meantime the 3rd party solution will do what you want.

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Will check out bluecataudio patchworks right now.. For the last several years, I have taking to using Logic's Score editor.. Actually quite a piece of coding (some of it the oldest code in Logic).. More composers, writers use, than Logic scoring than one might suspect. It's beauty i that does a reasonable job of scoring, instantly. And it is certainly sufficient for a lot of studio sessions.. Of course it is not quite as elegant as Finale, or Sibelous. But I have found creating and referring to the orchestral score of your piece, is an extremely powerful tool, to help with writing and arrangements. Hence me wanting to see the notes, of guitar picking virtual instruments, VI's with built in arpegiattors, and sequencers. You can 'fix' notes or message them into something more powerful, Since none of these built in VI instruments with little sequencers in them (to my knowledge take into account wha modal scale you may be using at a given moment (yes, I write some weird music at this point in my life)

 

Of course no hardware or software can be everything to every user. And although I probably come off as somewhat bitter and frustrated, I DO ADMIT Logic Pro, is a fine piece of programming (been using it since Emagic days)..

 

And Belly aching about Logic is not as dangerous as complaining about the real things in life which bother me. Do you think Apple has a 'homeland security act' in which they spy on suspected possible ' musical terrorist users'.. Oh snap I think there were two MIB guys parked outside of my house yesterday. No doubt monitoring my musical actiivity, and what 3rd party software I may be using in conjunction with Logic Pro.

 

Thanx Dewdman..

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Well I will say one thing, if you’re wanting to use both the audio and midi output from real guitar, I’m not sure you can do it even with the 3rd party solution. Well the only way I can think of right now you have to host two instances of real guitar, one to do the midi and the other as a sample player that just plays notes fed to it.
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Yes, two instances of Real Guitar with same patterns would work. Looked into Bluecataudio. Just glanced. I'll certainly have to research it more. If that does work, it would be the most painless procedure, perhaps. I'm pretty sure I read Real guitar will output audio and midi at same time (on VST) version of course. Although I wouldn't stake my life on it.

 

Thanx

 

Mark Styles

Edited by angelonyc
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On reading FAQ, someone states patchwork does not output any midi, so it appears that would not be my solution.. I wrote tech support. Simplest solution would be just to get a 2nd DAW with VSTs. oh well. Problem is I deleted all vst plug-ins because Logic does not use them.. Some mean spirited companies, ie. IK Multimedia, will charge you to re-download your purchased products after a certain period has ended.

 

I can re=download musiclab, so I could implement this solution.. Thanx for your posts, it prompted me to figure this out more.. My brain is now tired.

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that is incorrect. Patchworks outputs midi, I use it all the time for that. In LPX you have to use the MFX version in the midi fx slot. Then inside patchworks you have to configure the midi output to go to the host. I don't know what FAQ you are referring to.

 

If you put RealGuitar inside patchworks in a midi fx slot...then the midi generated by RealGuitar will go out of patchwork and continue on the same channel in LPX. Then in the instrument slot, host another instance of RealGuitar, but in that instance just use it for the sounds, no patterns there. Let hte instance in the Midi fx slot generate the patterns, let the instance in the instrument slot playback the sounds using the midi coming into it.

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Hi Dewdman42.

 

Yes, I got the Patchworks demo.. Patched up like you suggested, using Patchworks MFX AU in the MIDI EFX slot. I create an instance of MusicLabs, VST real guitar. which outputs does output processed MIDI.. Real Guitar uses two streams of MIDI data, one is blocked kbd legato chords. and then a 2nd track of their own MIDI guitar picking or strumming. These are one bar measures of midi notes, below the normal range of guitar.. This triggers Real guitar to pluck the different strings of instrument, so you get a nice stream of chord changes, with different 'guitar picking'.

 

Patchwork does EXACTLY trigger what ever virtual instrument perfectly. Except I can not still figure out how to output Patchworks processed MIDI out. I could find no mention in manual, or on their forums. I have sent them a tech support question, but it took them a few days to respond to my last question..

 

SO, IF YOU KNOW a way to get Patchworks MIDI out into Logic, or where to start exploring, I'd appreciate its

 

This makes real guitar or another plug-in which processes midi internally within their virtual instrument. EXTREMELY USEful.. You can easily string together beautiful constantly changing arpeggios, constantly changing midi picking pattern, so it's not just the same arpeggio, shifting chords, and assign it to any virtual instrument

 

I need the exact MIDI output notes, Cause I then further edit them and use another virtual instrument and write harmony notes from the real guitar processed..

 

Thank you Dewdman and Vallisoftware, for inducing me to start to find a solution, I'm determined to solve it now. If Patchwork can't do it directly. I'll have to go back to IAC stuff. Although I never really 'solved' that.

I'm guessing (haven't figured it out all enough yet), since The MIDI EFX is still an Audio Unit, and since Logic Pro doesn't deal with AU MIDI out.. The scripting thing is beyond my technical capabilities I'm afraid..

 

Still the ability to get Real guitars lovely MIDI picking to another virtual instrument is a GIANT step forward. THANX

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Patchworks sent me a link to using IAC bus.. I still am not getting this. I'm not understanding something. And then Logic just crashes, yet enough people insist it works.. I know I'm missing something, but haven't been able to figure out what it is

 

Years ago I did get IAC to work, between two applications, but delay, and timing issues were unacceptable. . I called Apple Enterprise the other day.. The expert, didn't know what an IAC buss was.. But he gave me a couple of ideas to try.. I'll get back to it, and try calling Apple support, and reach a 2nd or 3rd tier support person.

 

Articles I googled, explained it, seemingly just as you've specified here. Some get it to work, others can't. At this point, I just want to get the music happening not go neurotic, tracing down issues.. After 6 hours of failure, 2 with Apple tech support.. I just stopped and decided to watch the news. The frustration factor is a lot more direct and effective.

 

I'll get it though..

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Well honestly its kind of complicated and its very easy to end up getting an endless midi loop that could even crash LPX.

 

Its possible to get working but Setting it up is not for the faint of heart. I've had some plugins not work entirely right this way either...but others do.

 

When I get a chance I will download the RealGuitar demo and try to see if I can get something working.

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Thanx.. When my nerves settle, and I have a fresh supply of patience.. I did get Patchwork to to get MIDI out to a different Virtual instrument.. Yes, it work well.. I do want to get the MIDI notes out for notation purposes.. If I can't. I'll probably buy patchwork anyway for the ability to drive the guitar picking patterns.. Got a really great part, putting in Falcon and one of their UVI libraries..

 

So at the least it's a partial success. I told Apple I would play with the IAC stuff some more, and call them back, and get issue upgraded to a higher tech person.

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you have to be careful with IAC, because basically once you send the output to IAC, then its going back into the sequencer input of LPX...which means the output of RealGuitar is looping around and feeding into the input of RealGuitar again. You can get an endless midi loop that way and even cause LPX to crash in some cases. It wouldn't surprise if that's why it was crashing on you.

 

That's where it gets kind of squirely, and its one of my pet peeves about LPX that its so difficult to deal with plugins that output midi. I came from Digital Performer, and dead simple in that DAW.

 

I am trying the RealGuitar Demo, but I'm not sure it even outputs midi in demo mode, I can't seem to get anyway so far..

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k I got it to work. However, its not perfect, its kind of fiddly. But you can get the notes into LPX regions...

 

here's more exact instructions....

 

Create IAC port

 

  1. Open the Apple Audio Midi Setup Tool
  2. From the Window Menu choose Midi Studio
  3. Double click the IAC icon
  4. Make sure the IAC device is active by checking the box in the upper right
  5. make sure there is at least one port in the ports list, if not, use the + button to create one and name it if you like

 

iac.jpg.5e96ec9937d6a406afcce8e66f0b09a6.jpg

 

Setup LPX

 

  1. Create a new project with one instrument track, use whatever instrument you plan to use for sounds
  2. From the Window menu, choose "Open Midi Environment"
  3. Using the Environment "New" menu, create a new channel strip object, for now make it aux type
     
    auxchannel.jpg.1e8d16e94b7411d5899f8fc32902b219.jpg
     
  4. While that new channel object is selected in the enviornment, use the inspector on the left to change the value of the channel parameter to "Inst 255", and set MIDI channel parameter to "ALL". You can also rename this channel, I named it to "RealGuitar" and i chose a custom icon also.
     
    created_255.jpg.b427313812f1e5e28fc8ac4524e09b33.jpg
     
  5. NOTE that the above created channel appears in the mixer window but does not appear in the tracks pane above, this is good!
  6. Go to the mixer view, and add BlueCatAudio Patchworks to the midifx slot of the Real Guitar Midi mixer channel we just created.
  7. Inside Patchworks, add the real guitar VST
  8. Configure Patchworks to send midi output from the plugin to host
     
    patchworks_midiout.jpg.6d1485b75a10323bd434007e7afb52c5.jpg
     
  9. Configure RealGuitar to output midi only, no audio here.
     
    rg_midi.jpg.01d12ae369f2a5758d4387c87018b60e.jpg
     
  10. Add the Logic Utility External Instrument plugin to the instrument slot of this same mixer channel. This mixer channel will look like this:
     
    mixer.jpg.dc30ac4d0b7a3e7f2137ef0850bcd8cd.jpg
     
  11. Open the external instrument plugin and configure it to send to the IAC port you created above
     
    ext_config.jpg.574491d1e694cb7f8fd7b8d357aabd72.jpg
     
  12. Now select the track you created in step #1 above, its armed for record. hit play and play the keyboard in RealGuitar..you will hear sounds from the other instrument. So far so good.
  13. NOTE, it doesn't seem to work unless LPX is actually playing. Annoying. When LPX isn't playing, the midi isn't making it out.

 

Stop here and reflect about how that's working so far. RG is sending out over IAC, and its coming back into LPX, and whichever track is selected for recording will be receiving that midi and making sounds with it. You can add other instrument tracks and select whichever ones you want to record midi to and they will all be playing the midi sent by RG over IAC.

 

At this point you can setup RG with a pattern and record to that other instrument track. The output midi will record into a region there.

 

There is still one more problem, which is how to control RG keyswitches and such via midi. In order to do that

 

Get Midi control of RG

 

  1. Open the midi enviornment and select the Mixer layer if its not already showing (see top left of environment window for the Layer control).
  2. Select the the RealGuitar channel object you created earlier, and Command-X to cut it.
  3. Using the Layer control, switch to the clicks and ports layer
     
    clicks.jpg.49e4153dd04a349ad3df4902ad2137a8.jpg
     
  4. Command-V to paste the channel object to this layer. If it doesn't show up immediately, scroll to the right of the pane to find it, it sometimes will get pasted way off to the right out of the way, but you can move it to the left closer to everything else.
     
  5. Note in the top left you see the Physical Input box. It will have various things, which are all the current IAC ports, your midi interfaces, etc. Click on the arrow next to your midi controller name and drag a line over to the mixer channel you created earlier. That will cable it.
     
    midicontrol.jpg.6c3b7719081150c24093d38f68275d14.jpg
     
    At that point your midi controller will be connected directly to RG and you can control it from your midi controller. In this state your midi controller will NOT be connected to the sequencer input, so in order to get it connected to the sequencer again, you have to remove that cable, or put a switch there to quickly switch whether your midi controller is sending to RG for keyswitch control, or to the sequencer for other tasks
     
    .

 

If you don't understand any of those steps, please ask.

Edited by Dewdman42
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I also notice that you can drag patterns from RG into Logic and drop them to create regions, but those are the raw patterns...no chord. I'm not sure if there is a way to drag and drop the final generated patterns out of RG directly to LPX to create regions...there might be...but that is cleaner then actually recording them into regions if there is a way to get the final generated patterns dragged.
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I'll check out your 1st post here. I created the instrument a slightly different way.. My problem appears to be, I can't assign an output to IAC.. 2nd instrument I can assign input as IAC. I think that is the issue of my problem..

 

Regarding Last post,, Yes, the patterns out can drag out of Real Guitar, are patterns and NOT the notes that are actually to be payed.. I was playing around with the MIDI pattern notes, and moving them In Logic, (with the guitar chord notes on same track). I believe that this pattern notes, actually trigger which particular string on the guitar.. Real guitar figures out the exact note that is by referring to the block chords being sent to it. . The block chords also trigger a note. Although I believe when Real guitar received a full keyboard chord, it translated the notes into the proper format the way a guitar would play it.. (that is a 4 note keyboard chord fed into it, would be translated to a 6 note guitar chord, with the individual notes transposed to the proper octave like those played on a guitar..

 

Perhaps a politely worded question wot MusicLab will reveal a secret or two. The lead guy is very friendly, and I have corresponded with him several times over the years.. To my knowledge, Music Lab was the first company create this realistic effect.

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I create the a virtual instrument, and use Patchworks as a MIDI EFX and put real guitar VST in it.. I load in a virtual instrument (UVI Falcon analog motion patch.) The Real guitar outputs the proper notes to Falcon, and I hear the guitar picking with a different patch..

 

Where I get stuck is.. don't I want to patch the output of my Analog Motion with Patchworks to an IAC buss as the output.. There is no option to do that, I can find. , then pull up another instrument and assign it's input to IAC MIDI IN?

 

I can't assign my original instrument (UVI Falcon and Patchworks) to an IAC buss output.

Recording that virtual instrument, just patches the origins midi data, (not the proper calculated guitar picking).. After a few tries, thinking of every variation I can. Logic crashes.

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I create the a virtual instrument, and use Patchworks as a MIDI EFX and put real guitar VST in it.. I load in a virtual instrument (UVI Falcon analog motion patch.) The Real guitar outputs the proper notes to Falcon, and I hear the guitar picking with a different patch..

 

ok...

 

Where I get stuck is.. don't I want to patch the output of my Analog Motion with Patchworks to an IAC buss as the output.. There is no option to do that, I can find. , then pull up another instrument and assign it's input to IAC MIDI IN?

 

See steps 3-12 above.

 

You have to configure Patchworks Midi Output to send to "host", and you have use Logic's external instrument in the instrument slot of your LPX channel to send to IAC. Follow my instructions exactly, step by step and you will have it working..

 

Recording that virtual instrument, just patches the origins midi data, (not the proper calculated guitar picking)..

 

As explained earlier...the track comes before the channel. In other words, in LPX...by default your midi path looks like this:

 

Midi controller->LPX->sequencer->track/region->channel object->Patchworks/RG

 

So as you can see, RG is the last thing to act. The recording to the track/region happens way before hitting the Real Guitar plugin. That's why you have to send the output of RG out to IAC...then it will basically loop around back into LPX and look like this:

 

Midi controller->LPX->sequencer->track/region->channel object->Patchworks/RG-->External Instrument Plugin->IAC->

--->LPX->sequencer->track/region->channel object->any other instrument you want

 

Recording of RG parts will happen at the underlined step.

 

After a few tries, thinking of every variation I can. Logic crashes.

 

Not sure why Logic crashing for you. But as I said, if you ended up with an endless midi loop it could happen. Follow my step by step instructions above exactly step by step and ask me if you want to understand what each step is.

Edited by Dewdman42
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