C9sus4 chord question.

I know this is not about Logic but please forgive me.

Why does the C9 sus 4 chord have a minor 7th in it?

Thanks.

9ths tend to have 7ths,since most chords are built by stacking 3rds.

There are,of course,exceptions.

C9 would have a m7 as default,if a maj 7 is required it would normally be written as Cmaj9,or similar.

Similarly,a C7 ♯11 would contain a 9th, with exceptions...

You're welcome!

Just to put some felines into the pidgeon's den:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=77120&hilit=+b10

lol

Easiest way to remember this is:

[any chord] (without Major, Minor, Aug, Dim, denoter) is a dominant chord. And the formula for a dominant chord is: 1, 3, 5, b7 (of the major scale which named the chord).

ie:

C7 is a dominant chord. ---> 1, 3, 5, b7 = C, E, G, Bb

C9 is a dominant chord. ---> " " " " = C, E, G, Bb, D

C13, C11, etc. etc. ---> " " " " = C, E, G, Bb, D, F, etc..

and the dominant chord always has a b7 (minor 7) interval within the chord.

Hi

Easiest way to remember this is:

 

[any chord] (without Major, Minor, Aug, Dim, denoter) is a dominant chord. And the formula for a dominant chord is: 1, 3, 5, b7 (of the major scale which named the chord).

 

.

Generally true, but...

C6

C6/9

etc?

CCT

C6/9 AND C6 are chords that have the same function as a Cmaj7 chord. They are interchangable most of the time.

They are often used in bossa Nova and Latin music because they have a smoother character than the Cmaj7 chord. Also used a lot as the final chord, because if the final note is a tonic, like the c in the key of C the b in the Cmaj7 chord trends to clash at that moment with that final c note.

Hugo

Hi

Yes, but neither have any kind of 7 in them....

CCT

Hi

 

Yes, but neither have any kind of 7 in them....

 

CCT

Indeed. But they are still interchangeable. Even triads that have not 7 or maj7 "have" a "possible" seventh in them, in the sense that it is up to you to play/ include that seventh or not.

Wether you do use the seventh (be it major or b7) or not will mostly be dictated by the style/ genre. It is clear that in most country music the "hidden/ optional' major7 on the one or four chord will be completely out of style...

I had the same discussion once about "5" or "power" chords. My idea is that these "have" also a third but that it is just not played for stylistic reasons, like in most heavy metal genres...

Hugo

Easiest way to remember this is:

 

[any chord] (without Major, Minor, Aug, Dim, denoter) is a dominant chord. And the formula for a dominant chord is: 1, 3, 5, b7 (of the major scale which named the chord).

 

ie:

 

C7 is a dominant chord. ---> 1, 3, 5, b7 = C, E, G, Bb

C9 is a dominant chord. ---> " " " " = C, E, G, Bb, D

C13, C11, etc. etc. ---> " " " " = C, E, G, Bb, D, F, etc..

 

and the dominant chord always has a b7 (minor 7) interval within the chord.

I think this is slightly misleading. As mentioned, C6. Or Cadd2 (as you see in many pop scores). Or Csus4 (if not in a jazz context). All of these can be regarded as non-dominant. In the song 'exit music' by Radiohead, the 'A' section penultimate chord is an A sus4, it then very nicely resolves to an A major. A Is the tonic, which means it is most definitely not the dominant. Also, there are no 7th on any of the chords.

"The dominant", is a function and a note in a scale, a "dominant 7th" is a chord. A dominant 7th chord is, obviously, built from the dominant note in a scale. In C it's G. If you move up in 3rds to build the chord on the dominant, the key signature will determine that the dominant chord has a lowered 7th, which we call a "minor 7th".

Dominant chords throughout history were the first harmonic structures humans liked to mess around with. So extensions were added like the 9th and 13th. And altered ones like b9 etc. And still today in jazz, dominant chords are the ones we screw with the most. So I would assume that our notation practice of assuming a C9sus 4 is automatically a dominant 7 chord built on C with a 9th added and the 3rd raised to the 4th, is from a convieniance in the past, because major and minor chords didn't get that same treatment with extensions then. Technically, a C9 chord, should be called a C dominant 9. Just like C dominant 7.

It's just a short hand I guess.

A dominant 7 chord is a type.It only occurs "naturally" when built on the 5th degree of the major scale (or the xth defree of a mode) which is why it's called that.

Dominant 7th chords,however,are often used in 'popular' music where a 1 chord might be expected.In strict Classical theory this means a blues in C with a C7 in the first bar is in F!

One alternate method of nomenclature gives dom chords as 'x',as in IIx7 / Vx7/ Ix7///.

A sus chord is a nod to the suspension of the 7th of V resolving to 3rd of I ,as was common in Baroque etc.

The notes of the harmonic series appear in the order C © G © E (G) Bb...

Whew. Theory. Remembering that it all depends on the context, the easiest trick is that there are a few main groups of chord types:

maj7, maj9, maj11 etc

If it only has the "number" and no "maj" or "min" identifier, it's dominant: 7, 9, 11, etc

min7, min9, min11, etc

and then your diminshed, half-diminished, augmented, and all the other crazy fun stuff that comes after!

C6: This is a weird one. The nomenclature presumes this is a C chord with an A in it. That would actually make it an A minor 7th chord in first inversion.

So, the truth of the matter is that the "root" of the chord © would actually be wrong. C is not the root of that chord.

Anyone that has studied theory will get this one right now: C E G A. It's an A minor seventh chord in first inversion! And of course dear colleagues, we all know that a vi chord resolves to a ii chord, "generally". This is not the tonic chord in C major with a tertiary addition. It's a vi chord.

just because the chord has a fourth in it, doesn't mean it is actually a suspension.

It's not that the chord has a fourth in it. It has a fourth replacing the third. The "sus" implies "suspended" (as in "suspended chord").

J.

It's called a suspension, dating back to theory 101 classes, where a non-chord tone will be held, and then resolve to the 'proper' note in the chords. The definition of suspension I would presume comes from counter punctual writing, and of course now, it's all mixed together. The 'sound' of the chord, and our taste for it I think resides in the classic movement of a: I 6/4 chord resolving to a V chord. In this movement we hear a G bass with a C note over it, it then resolves to the B note and the chord progression sounds sexy. And then of course the impressionists took it much farther and and used those chords as stand alone sounds, . And then jazz took even farter still.

To answer your question more concisely kdsfage, in traditional terms, those notes (4ths) in the chord would have traditionally resolved down to their proper place. Thus seeming like a suspension. Now that we have a familiarity with these sounds and have no requirement to resolve, we simply continue to carry the name. Correctly, the chord should be called a C11(omit third). That implies a 7th and a 9 in there. But obviously that's a little dry. It also varies with who you're playing with.

In the end, f*%@ it, It's just all words, use whatever you need to communicate the right chord to your friend who is playing .

A more beautiful and poetic way to describe them might be as pretty chords who evoke the feeling ofsuspension , suspended above the high and mighty traditional forces that dictate the banal ol ' methods of creating harmonic movement.

In the end, f*%@ it, It's just all words, use whatever you need to communicate the right chord to your friend who is playing .

There you go!

A more beautiful and poetic way to describe them as pretty chords who evoke of suspension , suspended above the high and might y traditional forces that dictate the banal ol ' methods of creating harmonic movement.

Yeah!

J.

just because the chord has a fourth in it, doesn't mean it is actually a suspension.

 

It's not that the chord has a fourth in it. It has a fourth replacing the third. The "sus" implies "suspended" (as in "suspended chord").

 

J.

Well, again, that's more of a non-chord tone rather than a suspension. The parameters for a suspension -in music theory- are very specific. We all remember having to write the letters P S R over the effect in theory assignments.

Here is a short description of a 7-6 suspension, for example.

http://www.musictheoryminute.com/Suspension76.htm

Aleos: I think the conversation started as a set of questions regarding music theory. I get your point about the Zappa quote "Shut up and play yer guitar". That's true, but I think it's best to get the nomenclature and grammar down first, for the student of this sort of thing.

... and of course, accented passing tones are a whole other thing, too.

Well, again, that's more of a non-chord tone rather than a suspension. The parameters for a suspension -in music theory- are very specific. We all remember having to write the letters P S R over the effect in theory assignments.

 

Here is a short description of a 7-6 suspension, for example.

Cool, but I'm more of a jazz "cat" when it comes to harmony, and when I hear a C9sus4 chord I think "Dorian".

In other words Gmin7/C, where C is the 4th degree of the G Dorian scale, which can also be seen as the 11th of the chord, which is a common harmonic extension for minor 7th chords in jazz harmony.

J.

It's callersd a suspension, dating back to theory 101 classes where a non-chord tone will be held, and then resolve to 'proper' note in the chores. The definition of suspension I would presume comes from counter punctual writing, and of course it's all mixed together now. The 'sound' of the chord, and our taste for it I think resides in the classic movement of a: I 6/4 chord resolving to a V chord. In this movement we hear a G bass with a C note over it, it then resolves to the B note and chord progression sounds sexy. And then of course the impressionist took it much farther. And then jazz took even farter[/size][/b] still.[/size] Playing those chords but never resolving them.

To answer your question more concisely kdsfage, in traditional terms, those notes (4ths) in the chord would have traditionally resolved done to their proper place. Thus seeming like a suspension. Now that we are at famiarity with these sounds and have no requirement to resolve, we simply continue to carry the name. Correctly, the chord should be called a C11(omit third). Buts obviously a little dry. It also varies with who you're playing with.

In the end, f*%@ it, It's just all words, use whatever you need to communicate the right chord to your friend who is playing .

 

 

A more beautiful and poetic way to describe them as pretty chords who evoke of suspension , suspended above the high and might y traditional forces that dictate the banal ol ' methods of creating harmonic movement.

"And then jazz took even farter"

Are you implying that Jazz people are more gaseous than others?

Cool, but I'm more of a jazz "cat" when it comes to harmony, and when I hear a C9sus4 chord I think "Dorian".

In other words Gmin7/C, where C is the 4th degree of the G Dorian scale, which can also be seen as the 11th of the chord, which is a common harmonic extension for minor 7th chords in jazz harmony.

 

J.

It's a complicated way of thinking about it. I used to teach it in such a way that it was very easy for students to understand. I would ask them to think of things in major (or more correctly, when speaking about modality, Ionian) then, flat third and seventh, That would make it a dorian scale.

So, D dorian, flatten the F# and C#.

Easy.

I am still stuck upon the idea of the word and more importantly the MEANING and IMPLICATION of the word. Suspension implies a stoppage of movement. In no matter what context... if one is suspended from school, they are stopped from going there. If a lawyer suspends a --->motion<-----, he stops the procedure (as in "to proceed forward").

So, what is the "P"reparation?

What is the "S"uspension?

What is the "R"esolution?

In English, suspension is thought of as a form of verb. Persons who think of it as a chord are using it as a NOUN. Well, the word "suspension" is not a noun. To use it as a noun, they are using the word incorrectly.

Holds watermelon in the air... points at it and announces: "this is a steam locomotive". No, it is not a watermelon. It is a choo-choo train.

Suspension is a noun.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/suspension

The chord name conventions are not meant to be a true reflection of classical harmony.They are a shorthand way of communicating harmony without the detail of voicing etc.

A convenience.

Although I love abstract theory talk, I think a practical way to think of the sus chord, is by looking at it from two different perspectives, and realizing that those different perspectives have a different use, or 'sound'

Perspective #1 is through the lens of traditional harmonic progression/movement. The sus chord, which we noted is derived (roughly) from old-school harmony and was known as a cadential I 6/4 chord back then, is a harmonic structure that resolves elegantly to the V chord. Basically we hear one note changing, or in other words, the suspension resolving while most, if not all, the other notes stay the same. Because of other forces, our ears hear that one note very clearly amidst whatever harmonic and melodic activity is happening. The 4-3 (scale degrees) resolution (which is whats happening in a typical sus--> non sus progression) is so hardwired in the memory of our ear that it is a heavy progression despite the fact that not much is going on. And despite the fact that the 4th is not an unpleasant interval over the root, it's just that the 3rd is such a corner stone of traditional music making that the movement, from a half step away to the 3rd, is like an angelic hit of codeine and water after hiking through the desert for three days with a broken ankle. To sum it up, it is a functional usage of the chord. It relies on the classic musical aesthetic of tension-release. Of providing the audience with something that they know will come. The art of it is in it's delivery.

Interesting compositional explorations that can be done with this chord is trying to keep the 4-3 resolution audible, but changing other notes of the target chord. An approach like this will give the listener the satisfaction of the most important part, but surprise and create interest by playing with our expectations.

examples: in bars 7-8 of the verse of Radiohead's song "Exit Music" there is a 4-3 resolution on the tonic chord. bar 7 is Bsus and bar 8 is B. The real stroke of genius here is that the song is clearly in Bminor, and during that sus chord we know it is going to resolve to a "B" chord of some sort, but not B major! Really? Whoa. Again, playing with expectations.

Example 2 is in Radiohead's "Paranoid Android" where again we have sus resolutions in the 7-8 bars of an 8 bar statement. This time it is the 'V of V' making the sus resolution in bar 7, and then into bar 8 we have the V chord doing the same thing. The thing special here is that it docent resolve to the I chord like expected, it resolves to the bVII minor (!?). brilliant.

An important aspect to notice, is that both of these highly effective uses of the traditional sus resolution happen in in very traditional places. What I am saying is that Radiohead is not reinventing anything here, they are simply using these devices, with some minor adjustments, but in a fashion that has been typical for hundreds of years. bar 7-8 have alot of pressure to perform, so sticking a heavyweight harmonic device in there is always effective, the trick is to not sound corny.

Perspective #2 is the one that was made clear most notably by Herbie in Maiden Voyage as demonstrated above. And characterizes the modern belief that chords can easily be relieved of function, and that there is a whole world to explore by simply appreciating their 'sound'. Maiden Voyage is all sus chords going to other sus chords that have no traditional business with each other. The thing that Herbie was probably thinking was "this s#!+ sounds cool". And I like that perspective. That's how I write as well. The genius Olivier Messiaen had similar views. The point being that chords (or simultaneous attacked groupings of notes) can serve as a decorative or more poetically, coloristic device, as opposed to always having to 'function'.

One of my mentors, back in music school days, told me during my guitar lesson, "kid, I'm going to show you some California chords". He was referring to all the non-functional sus and lydian and 9th chords heard on the ECM record label. I was into that stuff. Sus chords that are non functional have always been California chords to me. Filled with smoke and sunshine.

Aleos: I think the conversation started as a set of questions regarding music theory. I get your point about the Zappa quote "Shut up and play yer guitar". That's true, but I think it's best to get the nomenclature and grammar down first, for the student of this sort of thing.

 

... and of course, accented passing tones are a whole other thing, too.

Yeah, you're right. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that learning about it was a waste of time. I am a theory addict, yet also, contrastingly a very punky DIY kinda fella. Maybe the Zappa paraphrasing was a feeble attempt at trying to shed any pretentiousness that often clings to me when I speak about theory.