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Danny Wyatt
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Alchemy's Modulation Panel Alternative

Tue May 11, 2021 11:56 pm

NOTE: This thread is about the drop down menu, not the panel itself where all the modulation list is.

I've always found the modulation panel very confusing. On the left side it says "Targets", but when you click it it first shows you the modulator, not the target and then you have duplicated information, because if the Filter CutOff is being modulated by both the LFO and the MSEG, then it will show Filter CutOff on both LFO and MSEG menus. To me, that's a bit useless, because then why do we need the Show Targets button on the right?
Here's what it looks like now:
Screen Shot 2021-05-12 at 7.43.21 AM.png
Screen Shot 2021-05-12 at 7.43.21 AM.png (36.13 KiB) Viewed 977 times


Why having the modulator first? If we want to see what a modulator is controlling, we can just click the corresponding tab (for example the LFO) and then click Show targets. That itself is already a good way to create organized sections.

My approach would be to keep the Show Targets on the right where we can see what that particular modulator is affecting. I would only sort them alphabetically
Screen Shot 2021-05-12 at 7.43.48 AM.png
Screen Shot 2021-05-12 at 7.43.48 AM.png (39.61 KiB) Viewed 977 times


Then on the left we would see the list of all parameters being modulated (the real Targets) and inside each target we would see the individual modulators, but also an "ALL MODULATION" option which would be the same as clicking the knob/fader. I think that clicking a knob/fader can be useful sometimes, but when you are seeing another panel, it's a bit of a waste of time clicking other tabs to go back to the parameter's panel. So here's my idea (I would sort them alphabetically though):
dw-alchemy-modulation.jpg
dw-alchemy-modulation.jpg (84.36 KiB) Viewed 977 times


What do you guys think?
• Logic Pro X 10.4.6 • M-Audio Fast Track Pro 4x4
• MacBook Pro mid 2010 • macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 • 2.4 GHz Intel Core i5 • 8 GB 1067 MHz DDR3

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Danny Wyatt (formerly known as 3ple) - Musician and Music Producer
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David Nahmani
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Re: Alchemy's Modulation Panel Alternative

Wed May 12, 2021 12:34 am

In the current modulation pane, the target you select appears at the top, then you can see a list of all the modulations affecting that target without having to click to open any pop-up menus. Would that be lost with your suggestion? For example here my Master Vol is modulated by AHDSR1, Velocity, LFO1 (Sine), and KeyFollow. I can quickly click different knobs in Alchemy to choose them as targets, and immediately see the list of all modulations affecting them.

Alchemy modulations.png
Alchemy modulations.png (32.82 KiB) Viewed 960 times
David Nahmani
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Re: Alchemy's Modulation Panel Alternative

Wed May 12, 2021 2:43 am

David Nahmani wrote:
In the current modulation pane, the target you select appears at the top, then you can see a list of all the modulations affecting that target without having to click to open any pop-up menus. Would that be lost with your suggestion? For example here my Master Vol is modulated by AHDSR1, Velocity, LFO1 (Sine), and KeyFollow. I can quickly click different knobs in Alchemy to choose them as targets, and immediately see the list of all modulations affecting them.

Alchemy modulations.png


No, the only thing changing would be how the dropdown menu is organized, plus the “all automation” option at the top which would behave the same way as when you click a parameter and it shows the list (just like your image).

So when you click the menu it shows the targets first, not the modulators. If you want to see what targets a particular modulator is affecting then you click one of the horizontal tabs be click Show Targets.

So basically the left panel would be focused on the targets, and the right panel (along with the tabs) would be focused on the modulators
• Logic Pro X 10.4.6 • M-Audio Fast Track Pro 4x4
• MacBook Pro mid 2010 • macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 • 2.4 GHz Intel Core i5 • 8 GB 1067 MHz DDR3

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David Nahmani
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Re: Alchemy's Modulation Panel Alternative

Wed May 12, 2021 4:32 am

Danny Wyatt wrote:
So when you click the menu it shows the targets first, not the modulators.

I'm not a fan of the idea I'm afraid, I find it confusing? You've already determined which target you're working with (in the menu at the top of the MODULATIONS pane), so I don't see the point of listing the target again inside the pop-up menu which is essentially a "Modulation source" menu: I shouldn't see a choice of different targets in that menu.

It looks like you're on an older Logic version, the one listed in your signature I assume? I don't see any targets listed in the source pop-up menu here in 10.6.2.

source pop-up.png
source pop-up.png (67.33 KiB) Viewed 892 times
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Re: Alchemy's Modulation Panel Alternative

Wed May 12, 2021 5:55 am

David Nahmani wrote:
which is essentially a "Modulation source" menu: I shouldn't see a choice of different targets in that menu.


It's not a modulation source menu, it's a target menu, that's why it says Target, not Source ;)
An LFO is not a target, it's a source, so why do I see the sources when I click the Target menu?

David Nahmani wrote:
I don't see any targets listed in the source pop-up menu here in 10.6.2.


You are looking at the wrong menu. I'm talking about the Target menu, not the individual sources menus.
Target Menu:
Target Menu.png
Target Menu.png (25.05 KiB) Viewed 865 times


Source Menu:
Source Menu.png
Source Menu.png (29.95 KiB) Viewed 865 times


Look at this scenario: I'm editing some modulation for Tune Coarse B and now I want to edit the modulation that's affecting the Classic Reverb's mix knob, which is inside Effects, then the D tab, all the way to the right (where I need to scroll horizontally).
1-initial state.png
1-initial state.png (72.54 KiB) Viewed 865 times


Right now, for the sake of clarification, I know it's the Sequencer, but let's say I didn't know. Well, I click the Target Menu and what do I see? Sources! Now I start hover over each source to see if I can find the Classic Reverb's Mix.
2-menu.png
2-menu.png (31.41 KiB) Viewed 865 times


Hover over 1, it's not here:
3-menu1.png
3-menu1.png (33.03 KiB) Viewed 865 times


Hover over 2, it's not here:
3-menu2.png
3-menu2.png (31.97 KiB) Viewed 865 times


Hover over 3, it's not here:
3-menu3.png
3-menu3.png (33.81 KiB) Viewed 865 times


Hover over 4, here it is! Now imagine if you have a super complex preset with lots of automation, with lots of sources and targets, how much time it takes you to find it:
3-menu4.png
3-menu4.png (35.32 KiB) Viewed 865 times


The other option is to go and click the knob itself. Since it's deep inside the effects, here's what I need to do: click the Effects tab
4-bottom1.png
4-bottom1.png (32.24 KiB) Viewed 865 times


Click the D tab
4-bottom2.png
4-bottom2.png (18.38 KiB) Viewed 865 times


Scroll horizontally
4-bottom3.png
4-bottom3.png (62.95 KiB) Viewed 865 times


Click the knob
4-bottom4.png
4-bottom4.png (38.42 KiB) Viewed 865 times



Now if you go to the initial image where you see the Tune Coarse modulation, if I knew that the Sequencer was modulation the Classic Reverb's mix and I wanted to edit it I could just
1 - Click the Sequencer tab
2 - Click the Show Targets and pick the Target I want to edit.


Now of course you can argue that if we did that way, where do the Note Property and other modulations go when it comes to menu? Well, that's another issue, but regarding this one where it says Targets, it doesn't seem logical. For the other modulation maybe we could have another tab with specific things that don't have a tab right now? Look at how Serum shows the whole list of modulation
serum.gif
serum.gif (41.48 KiB) Viewed 865 times



My whole point is that I rarely think "I want to edit the LFO XYZ" or "I want to edit the MSEG XYZ".
I think "I know that I want to edit the LFO that's affecting a specific knob (let's say the Reverb Mix)". Well, I would click the Target menu, pick Reverb Mix and then inside it would show me LFO.
At the same time, as I said, if I wanted to edit a specific LFO, since I know the source, I would just click LFO and pick the one I wanted (the numbers menu) or pick the Target on the right.

Sorry for the long reply, but it's hard to explain with just a few words hahaha
• Logic Pro X 10.4.6 • M-Audio Fast Track Pro 4x4
• MacBook Pro mid 2010 • macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 • 2.4 GHz Intel Core i5 • 8 GB 1067 MHz DDR3

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David Nahmani
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Re: Alchemy's Modulation Panel Alternative

Wed May 12, 2021 6:01 am

Oh ok I thought you were clicking one of the Source pop-up menus below.

Still when I click my target menu I don't see any modulation sources. Only targets:

Modulation Targets.png
Modulation Targets.png (35.19 KiB) Viewed 857 times
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Re: Alchemy's Modulation Panel Alternative

Wed May 12, 2021 6:32 am

David Nahmani wrote:
Oh ok I thought you were clicking one of the Source pop-up menus below.

Still when I click my target menu I don't see any modulation sources. Only targets:

Modulation Targets.png


Well in that case it means they actually noticed it didn’t make sense to call it Target and showing Sources ;)
I guess it was part of an update then. Since I can’t update to 10.5 and above, I will have to wait until I get a new Mac...

I’m glad they fixed that! Thanks for showing it
• Logic Pro X 10.4.6 • M-Audio Fast Track Pro 4x4
• MacBook Pro mid 2010 • macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 • 2.4 GHz Intel Core i5 • 8 GB 1067 MHz DDR3

-----------------------------------------
Danny Wyatt (formerly known as 3ple) - Musician and Music Producer
http://www.iamdannywyatt.com (links to all my social media included)