A technical support community for Apple Logic Pro users.

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Merlin
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Re: PDC broken with external side-chain

Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:18 pm

It's also possible to keep Logic "in the loop" as a sound source: play its instruments via Reaper and record the instruments in Reaper. In that scenario you can circumvent the PDC bug, and the automation timing issue, but still use Logic's great VI's. The idea and a possible execution is discussed here:



I've set it up via the loopback function in RME's totalmix software (and the IAC bus), but you could probably set it up using something like BlackHole too.

Cheers, Merlin.
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jonnycreations
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Re: PDC broken with external side-chain

Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:11 pm

I ran into PDC side chaining problem this week. I was searching for a reason as to why my tracks were suddenly out of sync after side chaining a compressor on the bass bus (with 5 basses) to the kick buss (with 3 kicks), side chaining a compressor on the instrumental bus to the vocal bus, and using some latency inducing plugins like Soothe2 on all of my individual vocal tracks. Just read through this whole thread and wow... am both frustrated and really grateful for how thoroughly this issue has been documented. Thank you all. I've reported the bug too to https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html. It really seems like a fatal flaw.

Are folks just not using side chains? Side chaining bass to the kick or side chaining instrumental bus to vocals feel like foundational functions... Just curious what people are doing to achieve this in light of this bug?

Anyway, I'm trying to write out my understanding of the workarounds mentioned here and in other forums and wanted to share where I am. Would love any additional insights/modifications to this list:

1. DON'T USE SENDS ON AUX/SUMMING STACK (IF POSSIBLE)
Ploki says he found if he refrains from using a send from an aux/summing stack, logic generally behaves
viewtopic.php?f=42&t=135038&start=120#p814388

2. TRY USING INDIVIDUAL TRACKS INSTEAD OF BUSSES/AUX TRACKS (IF POSSIBLE)

3. TRY AVOIDING LATENCY-INDUCING PLUGINS IN THE AUX TRACKS (IF POSSIBLE)

4. TRY PUTTING LATENCY-INDUCING PLUGINS BEFORE SIDE CHAINED PLUGINS (IF POSSIBLE)
en5ca's observation: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=135038&start=100#p800080

5. TRY USING DUPLICATE OR UNPROCESSED TRACKS AS A GHOST TRIGGER
Create new track. Copy of the trigger track (i.e. Kick) and remove processing or import original unprocessed audio if receiving files from client. Mute it and name it in helpful way. When using side chaining, use this track as trigger. If needed: Audition the side chain track and the original trigger track solo'd and slide the trigger track forward until it hits with the original through the compressor plugin.

6. TRY USING BUS WITH SAMPLE DELAY AS A GHOST TRIGGER
Suggested by StevenTOAST: viewtopic.php?f=42&start=20&t=135038&sid=88f2c4338e737b1ffd774b5a4cef9be2#p718622

Send the Trigger (i.e. Kick or Inst 1) to a bus, let's say Aux 1
Aux 1 settings: output=none, add a Sample Delay
Send Aux 1 to Aux 2
Aux 2 settings: output=none
Insert ducking compressor onto desired track, Side Chain to Aux 2
On compressor, switch the sidechain to "listen" and use the Sample Delay on Aux 1 to sync both clicks (original source kick and the one that passes through the sidechain path)
Repeat later in the project, the latency will be different as we add plug-ins
Don't forget to check the sync before rendering the final mix
TIP: You can adjust the delay to feed the sidechain kick with few ms earlier, so the sound "pre"ducks - (He says "to be honest even if Apple will correct this, I will use the same method, I find this tip pretty awesome in getting a nice, bouncy, ducking." He usually make a group of 16 busses just for these chains.

7. TRY USING MIDI AS A GHOST TRIGGER
Set up the Ghost Trigger (as described by https://youtu.be/tN6Ql7coRGU). Create a new software instrument track (this will not be heard, only read as a trigger for a compressor). Select Klopfgeist (Instrument > Utility > Klopfgeist) as the instrument because it uses almost no CPU. Add in MIDI notes (by drawing or copying from original MIDI) where you want the triggers to be (i.e. match the kick drum pattern). Change Output to a Bus. On chosen Bus, change Output to No Output. Add a Logic stock compressor to a track you want to trigger and select the chosen Bus as the side chain Input. Adjust parameters to taste. Set the delay of the ghost trigger to a positive value in the Inspector so it aligns again (as described by viewtopic.php?t=143422). This works because the sound coming through the Side Chain input is correct in the first place, it's just the compressor that gets triggered too early. Bonus: In addition to general Side Chain issues, can also be a way to automate a side chain. (i.e. If going for a pumping effect, the compressor is only triggered when there’s a MIDI note. If you want to not have the pumping effect for a section, delete MIDI notes.)
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AMD
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Re: PDC broken with external side-chain

Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:51 am

Hi jonneycreations. Yes, it’s a horrible feeling when you discover something so fundamental is broken in Logic, and it gets worse when you find out that it’s been like this for years.

Thanks for collating all the suggested workarounds in your post. It makes for easy reading for anyone wanting to try them out.

I don’t do a lot of complex external sidechaining. I mainly use a trigger to duck my bass(es) out of the way of my kick. For this I’ve found the sample delay method works fine, but I can imagine it might get annoyingly complicated using it in a more complex projects.

Did you find any of the workarounds useful for your situation?
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stormy
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Re: PDC broken with external side-chain

Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:59 am

I've been following this thread with great interest, and I'm not even sure if I've been affected by it. @jonnycreations summary of the workarounds is helpful. Is there a summary of the issues?

Or maybe this is a better question: if you don't use sidechaining at all, is automation still broken in some instances?
Logic Pro X 10.5.1. Mac OS X Mojave. MacBook Pro 2014 (4 core i7), 16 GB RAM. RME Fireface 802. Behringer X-Touch. Softube Console 1.
 
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Ploki
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Re: PDC broken with external side-chain

Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:22 am

yes it is
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jonnycreations
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Re: PDC broken with external side-chain

Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:48 pm

AMD wrote:
Did you find any of the workarounds useful for your situation?


Yeah, good question! I took some time to iron out my solutions because I think this is going to be an issue that keeps coming up in my mixes. I'll share what I found below and look forward to hearing what y'all think.


SHORT VERSION
Generally, when I removed my side chains, my mix timing was a lot better. But since this isn't always ideal, I also found if I change my side chain triggers so the trigger was an individual track, not an aux/bus, that worked. Also, I sometimes used a Sample Delay to finish the job.


DETAILED VERSION
Here's what I was doing... I started with a dry mix with tracks perfectly in time. As I added processing, things started to get funky—mostly around the side chaining. I was using what I would describe as basic side chaining techniques:

1.
ISSUE: Kick was ahead of the beat
SOURCE OF ISSUE: Side chained the "Bass Bus" (with 5 basses) to the "Kick Bus" (with 3 kicks) to duck the basses when the kicks occurred.
SOLUTION: I changed the side chain trigger to an individual "ghost" track instead of the "Kick Bus." To create my ghost track, I bounced my 3 kicks into a new, combined audio file, inserted that into a new audio track, set that track to no output, and used that as the trigger in the side chain.

2.
ISSUE: Vocals ahead of the beat
SOURCE OF ISSUE: Side chained the "All Instrument Bus" to the "All Vocal Bus" to duck the instrumentation slightly when vocals occurred.
SOLUTION: Same as #1 except I bounced my "All Vocal Bus"

3.
ISSUE: Vocals still slightly ahead of the beat
SOURCE OF ISSUE: (I think) Using an instance of Soothe2 to remove unwanted frequencies and Waves Vocal Rider to automate volume on every vocal track (8-10 LVs and 8 BVs) might be triggering cumulative issues.
SOLUTION: Added Logic's stock Sample Delay plugin to the "All Vocal Bus" and used my ear to put everything back in time.

---

Overall, it's worth looking closely at your side chains. I tested @talkbot's experiment from earlier in this thread (https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=135038&start=20#p712151) and would summarize it this way:

SIDE CHAIN'S....

...WILL WORK when an Individual Track is triggered by an Individual Track

If Signal Flow is:
Track 1 > Stereo Out
Track 2 > Stereo Out
Lin Phase is in Track 1

PDC...
...*works* when Compressor is in Track 1 > SC to Track 2


...WILL WORK when an Individual Track is triggered by an Aux Track

If Signal Flow is:
Track 1 > Stereo Out
Track 2 > Aux 2 via Bus 2 > Stereo Out
Lin Phase in Aux 2

PDC...
*works* when Compressor is in Track 1 > SC to Track 2
*works* when Compressor is in Track 1 > SC to Bus 2


...CAN BREAK when an Individual Track is triggered by an Aux+Aux+etc Track (If side chaining to a secondary (or tertiary, etc) Aux that comes after the original Aux with a latency plugin)

If Signal Flow is:
Track 1 > Stereo Out
Track 2 > Aux 2 via Bus 2 > Aux 3 via Bus 3 > Stereo Out
Lin Phase in Aux 2

PDC...
*works* when Compressor is in Track 1 > SC to Track 2
*works* when Compressor is in Track 1 > SC to Bus 2
*BREAKS* when Compressor in Track 1 > SC to Bus 3


...CAN BREAK when an Aux Track is triggered by an Aux+Aux+etc — (If side chaining to a secondary (or tertiary, etc) Aux that comes after the original Aux with a latency plugin)

If Signal Flow is:
Track 1 > Aux 1 via Bus 1 > Stereo Out
Track 2 > Aux 2 via Bus 2 > Aux 3 via Bus 3 > Stereo Out
Lin Phase in Aux 2

PDC...
*works* when Compressor is in Aux 1 > SC to Track 1
*works* when Compressor is in Aux 1 > SC to Track 2
*works* when Compressor is in Aux 1 > SC to Bus 2
*BREAKS* Compressor in Aux 1 > SC to Bus 3
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dylanjb
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Re: PDC broken with external side-chain

Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:09 pm

I’m trying out the three month free demo of Live Suite 11 and am absolutely blown away! I didn’t anticipate it to be this good. For anyone that produces electronic music I’d thoroughly recommend you try the demo. It’s fully functional and well worth checking out. Workflow is very different but really well thought out and I will definitely be buying a copy once the demo expires. Side chaining works flawlessly and in my opinion makes Logic look prehistoric. Apple should be embarrassed by their broken software, and judging by the number of people who’ve reported this bug, they should be well aware of it yet there is no communication and no sign of any fix. Perhaps it’s not straightforward and the code needs rewriting from scratch but someone from Apple could at least comment here and give a heads up. I’ve been a Logic user since the days of Emagic (still got my box with the mauve swirly thing on it) but it’s finally time to move on to software that actually works. I suggest that anyone who is seriously into electronic music production go download the demo from Ableton and judge for yourself. Don’t take my word for it! Logic’s GUI is clunky and outdated in my opinion. I guess it’s horses for courses when it comes down to choice of DAW and I appreciate not everyone can afford to chop and change. I really hope the day will come for those who continue to persevere with Logic and wait for a fix that’s been long overdue.
 
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Ploki
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Re: PDC broken with external side-chain

Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:22 pm

i dont think you can even do the kind of routing that causes logic to misbehave in ableton. mixing is absolutely horrid in ableton.
cool daw tho
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studiobysbox
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Re: PDC broken with external side-chain

Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:15 am

Ploki wrote:
i dont think you can even do the kind of routing that causes logic to misbehave in ableton. mixing is absolutely horrid in ableton.
cool daw tho


Actually you can do that kind of routing. Ableton works a bit like Reaper where your audio tracks can also be Bus/Aux Tracks. In Ableton, you create an Audio Track, Route all the audio tracks you want (say all drum tracks) to that audio track. Send that audio track to the master output. Rename that audio track to "drum bus.". There are also send tracks too (mainly for reverbs and delays).

Ableton can do any routing logic does. Actually if you have hardware synths and/or Eurorack, Ableton is perfect for you. There are Midi to CV, Audio to CV, and CV timing tools. There are Max for Live apps that specifically control your Eurorack. Ableton is perfect for that.

I couldn't get on with Ableton for 2 reasons:

The live audio engine is optimized for live performance. So it uses more CPU than more traditional DAWs because it's really build for using live. Ableton live is a bit of a CPU hog if you have projects with large track counts.

Ableton's workflow is geared for live performance. I am used to linear workflow DAWs (Cubase, ProTools, Logic Pro, Studio One) so the workflow drove me crazy.

What I did like about it was it's great for songwriting. You can write ideas very quickly in Ableton. I just could never finish. I may eventually get Ableton Live lite specifically for songwriting.

Back on topic. The sad thing about this sidechain PDC issue is the "rules of engagement.". Do this it it works. Route this to an Aux track it may work but run and Aux to an Aux that may break it. Having to figure out the rules must hurt workflow too. I saw a Youtube video with Disclosure where they specifically use ghost trigger tracks to use for sidechain in Logic Pro. That may be the best option.

This PDC issue is very frustrating. I can't believe you guys have been dealing with this for 4+ years!
 
bigramp
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Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:55 pm

It really is a shame Logic Pro doesn't address this, sidechain is such a vital part of the modern sound. I'm switching to ableton for modern productions.
 
JO'B
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Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:53 am

Another project crosses the "broken" line.

Trackspacer is great for demonstrating it because you can monitor the sidechain signal through the plugin. I'm sidechaining the bass to the kick here, when I hit the "sidechain" button on Trackspacer a few seconds in you'll hear how off the sidechain signal is.

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/jr3uv72xmnp2h6 ... 8.mov?dl=0
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Ploki
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Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:59 am

yeah, noticed this today on a stem master i was doing. I didn't have a timing critical thing so i didn't care, but it's a damn shame
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stormy
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Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:02 am

Have we all submitted a friendly request to Logic's developers here?
https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html
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JO'B
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Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:10 am

Is there a way to send an angry and demanding request?
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studiobysbox
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Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:17 pm

I have sent in 2 requests. TBH I think is a major audio engine issue that can’t be easily fixed.

I looked at Reaper again and just can’t get on with the amount of configuration it requires. I know some people love it but to me I spent more time trying to figure out what to do and hunting for scripts than making music.

So I decided to use Cubase as my main DAW and use Looic Pro as a glorified scratch pad. I’m creating a template in Logic to make it look a little like Ableton. I’ll use it for sound design and recording my Eurorack wiggles then take the audio into Cubase. I decided to just use the stock Logic Pro plugs and not even install any 3rd party AU plugs for it.

That way it doesn’t feel like I totally wasted money. But it is a shame they don’t fix it or even give us a status.
 
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Ploki
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Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:18 am

i've send about 6 over the years regarding this particular topic
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AMD
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Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:01 am

I’ve sent in multiple complaints also. Included links and videos etc. There’s no way they don’t know about this problem.
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Martin Schmitt
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Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:56 am

Now understanding so many issues I ran in.
This work arounds are pretty nasty... Time to switch the daw?
 
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Ploki
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Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:19 pm

a lot of DAWs have PDC quirks, just different.
or they have different quirks.
you pick the one that has least annoying for you.

for me, logic does the trick 90% of the time.
sometimes i manually nudge PDC, i rarely need it sample-perfect, it doesn't bother me as much, so i keep using Logic, because Studio one was less intuitive and pain in the ass, Cubase is EXPENSIVE and has some other annoying quirks (multi-track timestretch lol), ProTools is just antique, ableton doesn't have a mixer.

so... lets hope apple flxes it.
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AMD
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Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:16 pm

The release notes for 10.6.2 say it's fixed!!!!!!!!!!!!
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203718

Haven't had a chance to update and test it yet, but this is potentially excellent news!
MBP Retina, Mid 2012. 2.6Ghz i7, 16GB RAM, Logic X 10.6.2, OSX 10.15.7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, Komplete 10 Ultimate, Komplete Kontrol S61.
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