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EXS24 Alternate Sample-Round Robin Discussion


the sinner

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Hmmm. . . I'm fuzzy on this but isn't there a way to do this (in the edit mode of EXS24) using the group "Select by" parameter? Can't you have different samples triggered by choosing a controller and then indicated a control range? Or is that not what you mean?

 

(I've not tried this so I may be WAY off here.)

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As Orsanct was saying, you can select different samples by using the modwheel or other controller. But if you actually want to trigger a sample when moving the modwheel, that's a different story. And yes, there's a way to do this.

 

However, before I post the method, please clarify what it is you want to do --- have the modwheel actually trigger a sample (as if you played a note)? Or, use the modwheel to select between various samples on the same key (i.e., modwheel down = normal crash, but modwheel up = choked crash).

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As Orsanct was saying, you can select different samples by using the modwheel or other controller. But if you actually want to trigger a sample when moving the modwheel, that's a different story. And yes, there's a way to do this.

 

However, before I post the method, please clarify what it is you want to do --- have the modwheel actually trigger a sample (as if you played a note)? Or, use the modwheel to select between various samples on the same key (i.e., modwheel down = normal crash, but modwheel up = choked crash).

 

What i want to do is have seperate samples controlled by the mod wheel location. Using the hypothetical Crash example.

 

A mod wheel at rest triggers sample A.

A mod wheet at full or anything triggers sample B.

 

So the mod wheel does not vibrato or anything it only triggers pre recorded samples.

 

 

In fact if anyway is up for a EXS 24 programming gig tonite give me a PM, translating from premade giga or kontakt 2.

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I can't get into details because I'm away from my logic - but I think it can be done in the environment using a transformer . .. . I think I did this once a while ago.

There's a bit of programming the environment involved.

Of course with this you can use this technique on all instruments.

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A mod wheel at rest triggers sample A.

A mod wheet at full or anything triggers sample B.

 

Would have replied sooner but for some reason I'm not receiving email notifications from this forum...

 

Anyway, what you want to do is setup two transformers like this:

 

Dummy

("front end")

Instrument-------------> transformer A ----------->EXS-24

Object                       |                                      |

                                +---> transformer B ----+

 

 

Transformer A converts modwheel 0 into note "A"

Transformer B converts modwheel 127 into note "B"

 

In the EXS itself you need to program two zones, where the first zone is played by note "A", the other by note "B".

 

The "front end" instrument is assigned to the track, not the EXS-24 itself.

 

Here's how it looks in the real world...

 

http://www.score2picture.com/logicpix/modwhlnote.jpg

 

You would set up the other transformer similarly, where the modwheel value=127 and the note programmed in the bottom row reflecting the note programmed to trigger the sample in the other zone.

 

Each zone's sample should be set to have one-shot enabled.

 

Now, I wrote previously that it could be done, but there are problems with this scenario...

 

1) you have no velocity control over the samples

 

2) when you record this you will generate a note-on without a note-off; this means that notes will have an "unlimited" note length and is just one of several downsides that can cause you grief. I'm not going to take time to explain the details right now.

 

If you're seriously interested in seeing this through, post back and I'll give you the lowdown on how to overcome problem #2.

 

And BTW, after having sussed this out, IMO you'd be much better off using the pitchbend wheel to pull off this lil' stunt.

Edited by ski
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Hi ski,

 

About the modwheel as a way to control different inflections of the same sampled instrument...the Jam Packs have this on a lot of their instruments with velocity control (and I would assume note off, but maybe not). If you have the jam Packs, maybe you could open them up in the EXS and see how they did it. I have them, but the EXS is barely understandable to me at this point. I can use it...I can even program it a little, but I barely understand what I'm doing!

 

X

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Thanks for the detailed post, ski. Very interesting.

 

 

xs4is, when you refer to "different inflections," do mean the fact that they trigger different samples?

 

I wouldn't use the term trigger myself, because the sound doesn't come until a key on the keyboard is pressed, but some of the instruments that come with the Jam Packs have 2 to 5 different articulations of the same sample instrument. The choked cymbal is a great example (although, I'm unsure if that one exists in the jam pack). The first half of the mod wheel would be natural cymbal and the second half would be choked.

 

I know the World Jam Pack has an African choir instrument that has four or five different "words" depending on where the modwheel is set. And the Symphony JP has multiple articulations of its string instruments and also individual instruments of the different articulations.

 

Again, I wouldn't say the modwheel triggers the sample, I don't want to cause confusion and am not sure what the correct term would be.

 

Hope that helps.

X

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X-man,

 

What you're describing is "sample select". The position of the modwheel determines which sample is heard when a particular key is played.

 

This effect is generated by having multiple Zones, each loaded up with a different sample but assigned to the same note (or note range).

 

Next, Groups come into the picture. If you have a program where there are 3 samples on a key (which will change according to modwheel position), you'll find that you have 3 Groups in that instrument also. And each Zone will be assigned to one of those Group.

 

Each Group will have a field called "Select By", and programmed with "Cntrl: 1" (mod wheel). To the right is the range of the mod wheel that will cause that particular sample to sound.

 

By setting the Xfade amount (main part of the EXS's GUI) you can crossfade from one sample to the other. This is great for timpani, for example, where you might have p, mf, f, and ff samples. Four Groups. You can simulate intermediate dynamics (mp, or somewhere between mf-->f, etc.) by moving the modwheel to intermediate positions between the values set for each Group. In essence, the crossfading lets you "leak in" the audio from an adjacent Group.

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The modulation matrix is fairly straightforward to use and understand. It lets you take a control source and apply it to a destation for the purpose of changing the sound in some respect.

 

You can set up a static (constant) amount of modulation, or, use a controller to vary the amount of modulation in real time.

 

The main thing is to identify what kind of modulation you want to create. Two examples...

 

Vibrato via Modwheel:

 

What is vibrato? It's when an otherwise stable pitch is caused to waver in a repeating pattern. So the source of the "wavering" is an LFO, and the thing you want to affect is pitch.

 

Source = LFO (your choice)

Destination = Pitch

Control ("via") = Modwheel

Amount = to taste

 

 

Tremolo via Modwheel:

 

What is tremolo? It's when the volume of a sound is made to waver in a repeating pattern.

 

Source = LFO (your choice)

Destination = Volume (there are several options available)

Control ("via") = Modwheel

Amount = to taste

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Each Group will have a field called "Select By", and programmed with "Cntrl: 1" (mod wheel). To the right is the range of the mod wheel that will cause that particular sample to sound.

ski, I have a quick sidebar:

What does it mean when a group has a second "select by" that is one of the other group names?

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Orsanct,

 

I don't have Logic open right now, but... I believe that's an indication that the group is selected by EXS's key switching functionality (which isn't explained in the manual). I'll post back later after I refresh my memory on this.

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Orsanct,

 

I don't have Logic open right now, but... I believe that's an indication that the group is selected by EXS's key switching functionality (which isn't explained in the manual). I'll post back later after I refresh my memory on this.

 

OK, I just had a chance to look at this. Truth be told, I don't have a clue as to what happens if Group is chosen for "select by".

 

And I'd like to know myself.

 

David? Can you clue us in?

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sinner,

 

I think it's still not quite clear what exactly do you want to achieve?

 

a) play two different cym sounds just with the modwheel, without hitting a key.

 

OR

 

b) select one of two different cym sounds with modwheel, and then hit a key to play it.

 

OR

 

c) ... ?

Edited by Fred B
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It lets you link groups so the next time a note from this group is triggered it will playback samples from the next group, a behavior also known as round robin.

Rockbottom,

 

Thanks for the info! Just to make sure I understand this, does this mean that if I list a sequence of groups in the Select By area, each time I play a note from this group, I will trigger each Select By group -- in order -- until I reach the end of the list. At that point, it will start the sequence over. Is that correct?

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sinner,

 

I think it's still not quite clear what exactly do you want to achieve?

 

a) play two different cym sounds just with the modwheel, without hitting a key.

 

OR

 

b) select one of two different cym sounds with modwheel, and then hit a key to play it.

 

OR

 

c) ... ?

 

B

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Just to make sure I understand this, does this mean that if I list a sequence of groups in the Select By area, each time I play a note from this group, I will trigger each Select By group -- in order -- until I reach the end of the list. At that point, it will start the sequence over. Is that correct?

 

Yup. AKA a "Group Chain". A good example is a 2 group chain where group 1 is an upstrummed guitar and group 2 is downstrummed. Each time you play the note, they alternate.

 

Redmatica's Keymap actually has a dedicated Group Chain editor. Even if you don't have this software, which I highly recommend, download the manual as it helps in comprehending the EXS advanced features a little better.

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Thanks, fader8, for the clarification. The Keymap manual really does a nice job of explaining this feature. I'm kind of curious about what kind of creative uses folks have made of "group chains" (other than up/down strokes and "humanizing" the performance of repeated notes). Anybody out there done any interesting things with this?

 

I've gotta get Keymap sometime. I've been eyeing it recently.

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Sinner,

 

A mod wheel at rest triggers sample A.

A mod wheet at full or anything triggers sample B.

 

So the mod wheel does not vibrato or anything it only triggers pre recorded samples.

 

After going through the trouble to illustrate everything on the previous page, and now seeing that this isn't what you wanted, it's time to get the nomenclature straight...

 

"Trigger" is synth terminology for "the thing that initiates a sound". So to say that "the mod wheel.....only triggers pre-recorded samples" indicates that you want modwheel movements to actually initiate the sound.

 

As Fred has pointed out, Orsanct has already provided you with the answer.

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Thanks, fader8, for the clarification. The Keymap manual really does a nice job of explaining this feature. I'm kind of curious about what kind of creative uses folks have made of "group chains" (other than up/down strokes and "humanizing" the performance of repeated notes). Anybody out there done any interesting things with this?

 

I first learned about this effect by doing an autopsy on some of the instruments in Kirk Hunter's Emerald library which make use of "round robin". On staccato trombone, for example, there are two different takes of each note, and playing fast staccato passages sounds incredibly realistic.

 

Anyway, I'd be curious to know what other uses people have for this myself.

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I first learned about this effect by doing an autopsy on some of the instruments in Kirk Hunter's Emerald library which make use of "round robin". On staccato trombone, for example, there are two different takes of each note, and playing fast staccato passages sounds incredibly realistic.

 

Anyway, I'd be curious to know what other uses people have for this myself.

I thought of a couple of (possibly) interesting orchestration ideas using multiple "round robin" chains.

 

1. Composer George Crumb did this neat flute effect in his "Voice of the Whale." Basically, the flutist repeats the same note but creates a shimmer by alternating between normal fingerings and various harmonic fingerings. One could sample a flute playing various notes using natural fingerings and each of the available harmonic fingerings. By combining these into a chain on the EX24 I could imagine some interesting effects.

 

2. In similar fashion, certain woodwind instruments (saxophone comes to mind) can create "resonance tremolos" by adding and subtracting keys while playing a single note. This usually results in what sounds like changing vowels. Each of these alternate fingerings could be sampled and chained together.

 

Just a couple of random ideas. Others?

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I like your idea for alternate/harmonic fingerings. Along those same lines, multiple takes of overblown, staccato flute notes for doing Ian Anderson-like flute parts.

 

Assorted percussion instruments... but after a while, if the same note was played enough times, a pattern would likely develop. An odd number of samples would help to break that trend tho.

 

Picked guitar strings (whether damped or allowed to ring). Would provide an incredible amount of realism provided you had at least 4 or 5 samples to round robin with. Or maybe interspersing harmonics of those strings within the groups. That could lead to some normally unplayable but very cool sounding guitar parts.

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this is some very nice s#!+!!

brilliant thread!

 

however, when i try to assign the second 'Select By', nothing happens!?

it seems the editor indicates that it is an option but won't let me do it...

what am i doing wrong?

 

k

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