Lowering the automation of all tracks? [SOLVED]

Hi All,

Couple questions about logic... Say i have a mix going and i've written some automation and now my mix is too hot and instead of bringing down the master fader, i want to lower to volume of all the tracks simultaneously (also bringing down the volume automation) how would i do this? is there a global way to do this or would i have to go track by track?

 

Also if i want to shift all my tracks and automation to a new time, lets say acouple bars later, how would i do this globally?

 

 

Note from admin: Quick Link to answer in this thread

First:

You never want to bring down the Master Fader, leave it at 0db the whole time. Bring everything else down.

Second:

If you have automation you have to bring down the automation on each track.

Select the thin automation volume indicator on the track header in the Arrange window, hold down Command and drag the volume indicator down.

Third:

Select all the regions and move them to where you want them and it will ask you if you want to move the automation, select move.

I am having this same issue and was hoping for a bit more clarity on the process.

 

My mix is too hot, I was mixing with the monitors down. I want to bring the whole mix down but of course I don't want to touch the master fader.

 

I have volume automation on some tracks but not on others.

 

My question is:

 

Is there a simple way to decrease the volume on ALL of my tracks at once and in a way that also preserves the balance of my mix?

First:

You never want to bring down the Master Fader, leave it at 0db the whole time.

 

 

I don't want to touch the master fader.

 

 

Just turn the output/master fader down or insert a gain plug-in!

So, Eric, what you're saying is that the idea that the master fader should be avoided in lowering the volume of your mix is incorrect?

 

Say my mix is peaking around +2db. I can lower the master fader until my mix is peaking around -5db without any ill effects?

It's always interesting to read topics about pros and cons of turning down the Master fader or Output 1-2.

It's only a manner of work, nothing else.

Well, I hate to beat a dead horse here, but I'd like a definitive answer I suppose.

 

Say I were to lower all of my tracks volume proportionally until the mix was peaking at -5db. I could achieve the EXACT SAME result in a more simple fashion by simply lowering the Master Fader until the mix was peaking at -5db. Correct?

Hell, yes! Or insert a Gain plug-in, as Eric suggested.

Well, I hate to beat a dead horse here, but I'd like a definitive answer I suppose.

 

Say I were to lower all of my tracks volume proportionally until the mix was peaking at -5db. I could achieve the EXACT SAME result in a more simple fashion by simply lowering the Master Fader until the mix was peaking at -5db. Correct?

 

The Master fader should be set at unity and forgotten. It has been known to affect things like I/O plug in levels. You may not use something like that.

 

However, what if I have multi outputs such as 1/2, 3/4, 5/6 controlled with automation.

 

Looks like my only option is the Master output. I cannot put a Gain on the Master output, so I have to adjust the fader.

 

Other than that example, My Master is always at unity and I will adjust Output 1/2 if automation is involved ( actually, my master and outputs are always set at unity.)

 

My practice is to NOT let individual channels go above -.3dB at all - ever!

 

If anything, I will turn the mix up ... blah, blah, blah....

 

 

http://www.btinternet.com/~tonyrichardson/horse.gif

 

 

 

Relatively speaking, it is all apples, oranges, strawberries, pears, and bananas.

Wow! Is there is really no easy way to do this? Then I can see where this will really bother me (as I too would prefer not to touch the master bus). This is done very easily in both Pro Tools and Sonar. I'm hoping that somebody has an answer. Does Logic have a Trim or offset mode? In Pro Tools, you just group the tracks together, Select all and bring the automation down on all tracks. In Sonar, you go to Offset mode, quick group all tracks and turn down the volume on one of the tracks and it brings all grouped tracks down together. Can you follow either of these procedures in Logic?

There is a really easy way to do this: turn down the Out 1-2 (Logic 8 ) or Stereo Out (Logic 9) fader. Leave the Master fader alone.

 

Now if you enjoy complicating your life there are TONS of various complicated ways to achieve exactly the same thing. Some people like to think that those more complicated ways sound better - they don't.

 

I'm always surprised when someone asks that question then says "I'd rather not turn down the Out 1-2/Stereo Out". That's kinda like saying: "I need to get to the 13th floor of a building, but I'd rather not use the elevator. Is the only way really to take the stairs? That seems daunting?" .... well that's why they have the elevator!

Edited September 25, 2009 by David Nahmani

Say I were to lower all of my tracks volume proportionally until the mix was peaking at -5db. I could achieve the EXACT SAME result in a more simple fashion by simply lowering the Master Fader until the mix was peaking at -5db. Correct?

 

Yes. The only exception is if you have a 24 bit fixed 3rd party audio plug-in on your Out 1-2/Stereo Out channel strip. Then it's better to place a gain plug-in before that 3rd party plug-in, and turn THAT down by 5dB.

 

However, I recommend leaving the Master Fader to 0 dB and use the Out 1-2/Stereo out fader instead.

Say I were to lower all of my tracks volume proportionally until the mix was peaking at -5db. I could achieve the EXACT SAME result in a more simple fashion by simply lowering the Master Fader until the mix was peaking at -5db. Correct?

 

Yes. The only exception is if you have a 24 bit fixed 3rd party audio plug-in on your Out 1-2/Stereo Out channel strip. Then it's better to place a gain plug-in before that 3rd party plug-in, and turn THAT down by 5dB.

 

However, I recommend leaving the Master Fader to 0 dB and use the Out 1-2/Stereo out fader instead.

 

Okay, so I'm a little confused about how Logic's busses are set-up. You can't put any effects on the master bus and it almost seems like the Master bus is a VCA (no audio runs through it, it only controls the volume of all tracks in the session. However, when I turn down the master fader, I still see the same amount of signal hitting the first plug-in on my Out 1-2 Bus. ??? Does that mean that the Master Fader controls the level after the Plug-ins but before the Out 1-2 faders?

 

I'm sorry if this is ignorant, but I am very use to a fixed point system with Pro Tools HD (48 bit fixed point). In Pro Tools, on the Stereo Out 1-2, you should never fix the clipping on the bus by putting a trim plug-in on a first insert. The reason being that the signal will still be clipping, only brought down in volume so that the Post meter on the Stereo Out put isn't showing clipping.

 

By default, on the Out 1-2 fader, it is showing levels for post fader/after the plug-ins. So I hesitate to just turn down the output level on the master fader to correct the problem unless, the fader is actually controlling pre-fader/pre-effects level (which it clearly isn't).

 

However, it could be that the level won't clip the input stage of the stereo 1-2 fader in a floating point system (such as Logic). So, in this case, it would not be clipping the input of the first plug-in on the Out 1-2 fader.

 

Can anybody clarify this? If this isn't true, then the only way to avoid clipping on the input stage of the Out 1-2 fader, would be to turn down all the tracks in the project.

The master fader controls the levels of all output faders at the same time - no signal runs through it. As you said, PT TDM is a fixed point engine. Logic on the other hand is a floating point engine, which is why you don't have to worry about clipping until you actually go back to a fixed point engine: fixed point 3rd party pligin or d/a converter.

 

So once again, turn down your output fader, that's it. I know it's a hard concept to grasp, but that's just the way it works!

http://img.skitch.com/20090926-prxaimx77nub86rkx9c34n4dqu.preview.jpg

Click for full size - Uploaded with plasq's Skitch

 

So here is an example of what I am talking about. Notice that both my Output 1-2 and Master Faders are low showing -21 db as the highest peak. But my first plug-in, Limiter, is cranked to -40 db.

 

Now I set this scenario up with extreme settings on other tracks to really push this much level through the stereo 1-2 bus, but this is what makes me wonder if it is possible to peak an input of the stereo 1-2 bus.

 

With these extreme settings, I wasn't hearing distortion, so I am assuming that the floating point engine keeps this from clipping. So in extreme settings where everything is too hot into the stereo 1-2 bus, you could use the Trim as the first insert to tame the bus.

 

Anyways, Logic still needs to make it easy to turn down all the levels at the same time (with and without volume envelopes). A perfect scenario for when you would need this is: where some of your tracks are close to peaking on their individual tracks and you need just a little more juice for something like a vocal track beyond 0 db. The solution for this situation is only to turn down all your tracks.

The master fader controls the levels of all output faders at the same time !

 

My example above (with the picture) shows that this can't be possible. If that was the case, my limiter would not be showing that kind of gain reduction with the master bus fader that low.

The master fader controls the levels of all output faders at the same time !

 

My example above (with the picture) shows that this can't be possible. If that was the case, my limiter would not be showing that kind of gain reduction with the master bus fader that low.

 

You're still not understanding the signal flow of Logic, or of any mixing console for that matter: a fader is ALWAYS AFTER the plug-ins. I'll try to explain in more details when I have a mn. For now, all your example shows me is that you're not understanding what I explained.

The master fader controls the levels of all output faders at the same time !

 

My example above (with the picture) shows that this can't be possible. If that was the case, my limiter would not be showing that kind of gain reduction with the master bus fader that low.

 

Place level meters before and after the places you are chaining the gain and watch the results.

 

Yes, the MASTER fader controls the levels of the Output channels. Try it for yourself and see. Change your outputs from the Stereo 1-2 I/O to additional outputs 3/4, 5/6, 7/8, etc and see for yourself.

 

This is Logic and not Protools.

The master fader controls the levels of all output faders at the same time !

 

My example above (with the picture) shows that this can't be possible. If that was the case, my limiter would not be showing that kind of gain reduction with the master bus fader that low.

 

You're still not understanding the signal flow of Logic, or of any mixing console for that matter: a fader is ALWAYS AFTER the plug-ins. I'll try to explain in more details when I have a mn. For now, all your example shows me is that you're not understanding what I explained.

 

No you guys are right. I thought that you meant that the master fader controls all track outputs (going into the stereo outputs) as apposed to the stereo 1-2, stereo 3-4 etc. outputs.

 

I know exactly how a mixing console works. I'm just trying to grasp what the "master" fader in logic is. As it is completely different between Logic, Sonar and Pro Tools.

 

So if I understand correctly, the master output is like a VCA for outputs 1-2, 3-4 and etc. Correct?

So if I understand correctly, the master output is like a VCA for outputs 1-2, 3-4 and etc. Correct?

That is exactly correct.

No you guys are right. I thought that you meant that the master fader controls all track outputs (going into the stereo outputs) as apposed to the stereo 1-2, stereo 3-4 etc. outputs.

 

I know exactly how a mixing console works. I'm just trying to grasp what the "master" fader in logic is. As it is completely different between Logic, Sonar and Pro Tools.

 

So if I understand correctly, the master output is like a VCA for outputs 1-2, 3-4 and etc. Correct?

 

 

 

Yes, along that line. Also for the I/O plug in.

 

However, the other issue is automation.

Using the Stereo output 1-2 channel fader to lower the output of all channels (Not change the individual channel levels) all at the same time.

 

That (for now) is the quickest and easiest method most Logic users have found.

 

You can boost the channel level by 6 dB and Lower it at the Output by 6dB. Even though the individual channel may be clipped, lowering the output reduces the clipping.

 

Lowering the output does have limits when channel strips get pushed to an extreme.

 

Clipping the individual channels is a bad habit to get into.

K. Thank you everybody for your help. I really appreciate it.

Yes, along that line. Also for the I/O plug in.

 

However, the other issue is automation.

Using the Stereo output 1-2 channel fader to lower the output of all channels (Not change the individual channel levels) all at the same time.

 

That (for now) is the quickest and easiest method most Logic users have found.

 

You can boost the channel level by 6 dB and Lower it at the Output by 6dB. Even though the individual channel may be clipped, lowering the output reduces the clipping.

 

Lowering the output does have limits when channel strips get pushed to an extreme.

 

Clipping the individual channels is a bad habit to get into.

 

Awesome! Exactly what I was wondering. I just wanted to make sure that I understood the floating point correctly and this points clear out the questions I had (and was experiencing).

I know exactly how a mixing console works. I'm just trying to grasp what the "master" fader in logic is. As it is completely different between Logic, Sonar and Pro Tools.

 

OK I thought you were under the impression that the fader was before the plug-ins...

 

That Master Fader should not be there when you're working in stereo. I've been lobbying Apple to remove it or hide it when working with a single pair of outputs. In fact in most of my templates I hide it by clicking the master filter at the top right of the Mixer.

 

Leave the Master fader on 0 dB, don't touch it ever again, hide it, and use the Stereo Out to adjust your level.

Lowering the output does have limits when channel strips get pushed to an extreme.

 

I'm confused by that statement. For all practical purposes, you could push all your individual channel strips to an extreme (let's say they peak at + 96 dB FS, or 96 dB above the virtual clipping level), and lower the Stereo Out to - 96 dB, and you will experience absolutely zero distortion - in fact if you bounce the result and compared it to a "proper" mix where you lowered all the individual channel strips by 96 dB and left the Stereo Out on 0 dB, you'd see you're getting the exact same results, bit for bit, zero = zero and one = one.

 

This is easy to verify: take a simple mix, add a gain plug-in on the last insert of each channel strip, set it to + 24 dB, copy it 3 more times, and lower the Stereo Out to -96 dB, you won't hear any distortion.

 

I feel that it's important to stress out that there's no voodoo, no magic, no "tiny amount of distortion", no breaking down of that rule past any "extreme" level (for all practical purposes in the audio mixing domain).

Anyways, Logic still needs to make it easy to turn down all the levels at the same time (with and without volume envelopes). A perfect scenario for when you would need this is: where some of your tracks are close to peaking on their individual tracks and you need just a little more juice for something like a vocal track beyond 0 db. The solution for this situation is only to turn down all your tracks.

 

No, the solution is to turn up your vocals and turn down the Stereo Out. If you're afraid this will change the way the threshold parameter of dynamic plug-ins inserted on your stereo out is acting, you can adjust that threshold with your ears, or you can simply insert a gain plug-in before that plug-in (easiest to have one at the top of your Stereo Out) and turn the gain down there.

Anyways, Logic still needs to make it easy to turn down all the levels at the same time (with and without volume envelopes). A perfect scenario for when you would need this is: where some of your tracks are close to peaking on their individual tracks and you need just a little more juice for something like a vocal track beyond 0 db. The solution for this situation is only to turn down all your tracks.

 

No, the solution is to turn up your vocals and turn down the Stereo Out. If you're afraid this will change the way the threshold parameter of dynamic plug-ins inserted on your stereo out is acting, you can adjust that threshold with your ears, or you can simply insert a gain plug-in before that plug-in (easiest to have one at the top of your Stereo Out) and turn the gain down there.

 

Let me take that example a step further.

 

Let's say you have started mixing everything on the hot side. Let's say you then went to add drums and in order to get it balanced right with the rest of your tracks, you had to boost it to +6 db.

 

Now let's say you go to add a bunch of vocal tracks. You don't want them super compressed and you just don't get enough volume by pushing the faders up to +6 and they are normalized. The best way to solve this problem is to turn all of your tracks down. Sure, you could get away with adding a gain plug-in to all of those vocal tracks and then turning the output down considerably, but that is such a messy way to have a project. I think most engineers would agree that the cleanest way to fix this situation would be to turn down all the faders. If it was easy to do, then it would make most sense to handle the situation this way.

Let me take that example a step further.

 

Let's say you have started mixing everything on the hot side. Let's say you then went to add drums and in order to get it balanced right with the rest of your tracks, you had to boost it to +6 db.

 

Now let's say you go to add a bunch of vocal tracks. You don't want them super compressed and you just don't get enough volume by pushing the faders up to +6 and they are normalized. The best way to solve this problem is to turn all of your tracks down. Sure, you could get away with adding a gain plug-in to all of those vocal tracks and then turning the output down considerably, but that is such a messy way to have a project. I think most engineers would agree that the cleanest way to fix this situation would be to turn down all the faders. If it was easy to do, then it would make most sense to handle the situation this way.

 

Yes, but keep in mind the OP talks about automation, so in that case, the individual adjustments are pointless and the Output Fader kicks in.

 

Whatever works will work. Everyone has a different workflow.

Yes, but keep in mind the OP talks about automation, so in that case, the individual adjustments are pointless and the Output Fader kicks in.

 

Whatever works will work. Everyone has a different workflow.

 

That is exactly my point. Logic should really make it easier to bring down the volume on all tracks when some tracks have automation and others don't. Sonar and Pro Tools make it way easy to do that. The original poster is asking for it and I completely agree with him.

On a way to scale all automation in one fell swoop, it would be a great thing to add, except David is telling us, it's already there, that's what the output fader is for. It really doesn't get simpler and easier than that, we just all seem to believe it needs to be left on unity. Ok, I'm letting go of that misconception because... I am modern man. - Emile