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Dewdman42
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VEP7 AU3 Template and Instructions

Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:30 pm

In VSL's VEP7, an AU3 plugin has been introduced which provides for up to 127 midi channels over multiple ports per VEP instance.

VEPAU3-1270-tracks.zip
(781.66 KiB) Downloaded 51 times

VEPAU3-1536-midi.zip
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Requirements

  • OSX High Sierra or above
  • LogicPro 10.4.5 or above

Template Notes

  1. Due to bugs in LogicPro as of 10.6, the track delay parameter does not operate properly with any multi-timbral situations, including both AU2 and AU3 plugins, regardless of whether the environment is used or not. If you need to use the track delay parameter, you should not use multi-timbral setups of any kind.

AU3 Notes

  1. Apple supposedly added official AU3 support several years ago, but insiders say the developers think it is not fully developed yet. FWIW.

  2. VSL, for similar reasons, is calling their VePro.AU3 plugin as "beta", primarily I think because Apple is saying its not fully done yet.

  3. As of today, the transport sync is not transmitted through the VePro.au3 plugin to the VePro server. so if you try to use any kind of tempo based plugin in VePro, it will not work through AU3, you will need to use AU2. Its not clear yet whether this is due to Apple or VSL, but it doesn't matter. As of today, that doesn't work.

  4. if you try to save Library Patches in LogicPro from AU3 tracks, the port assignment is not currently saved with the patch, so if you use anything other then port 1, that won't be saved with the patch at all.

  5. If you use any third party midi plugins in the midi fx section of your channel strip with VePro.AU3, the port assignment is erased while passing through them. So don't use third party midi plugins with VePro.AU3 if you are using more than 1 port


Manually creating AU3 multi-port tracks - instructions

It turns out that the instructions for creating up to 127 tracks to each VePro.AU3 instance are actually pretty easy, but not entirely straight forward. It requires a little GUI usage tap-dance, that I will explain below. But using this approach you can build up 127 tracks in under a minute. Or just create the tracks one by one as you go too, you just have to make sure to use this little tap-dance that I'm about to explain, and know when to do it.

  1. Create a new instrument track with VePro.AU3 as the instrument.

  2. The new track will default to using MIDI channel "ALL". Change the MIDI channel to "1". The Port should default to "1".

    Screen Shot 2021-04-09 at 8.48.21 PM.jpg
    Screen Shot 2021-04-09 at 8.48.21 PM.jpg (23.14 KiB) Viewed 241 times


  3. While this new track is selected, using the following menu command, or factory key command CTRL-RETURN:

    Screen Shot 2021-04-09 at 8.50.35 PM.jpg
    Screen Shot 2021-04-09 at 8.50.35 PM.jpg (167.53 KiB) Viewed 241 times


  4. The above will create a new track that is pointing to the same VePro.AU3 instance, but configured on (Port1, Channel 2)

  5. Press CTRL-RETURN 14 more times to end up with no more than 16 tracks for midi channels 1-16. Do not go past channel 16, if you do, delete the extras now.

  6. Here is the tap-dance! In order to create the next track on (Port 2, Channel 1), LogicPro doesn't provide an automatic way. You can't use the same method above. You will need to do the following: Select the last one, which is currently assigned to midi channel 16. Look at the track properties on the left and change the midi port to 2 and the midi channel to 1.

    Screen Shot 2021-04-09 at 8.56.09 PM.jpg
    Screen Shot 2021-04-09 at 8.56.09 PM.jpg (26.83 KiB) Viewed 241 times


  7. Step two of the tap-dance, is to now select the track above it (hint, use up-arrow), and hit CTRL-RETURN again to create the 16th midi channel again.

  8. Now select the last track again, which is currently set to port2, channel1. (hint- using down arrow is quick). Hit CTRL-RETURN 15 times. The last track created should be port2, channel16.

At this point you should have 32 total tracks on 2 ports. You can repeat the above procedure to create up to a total of 127 tracks, but no more.
In fact if you try to create a 128th track, LogicPro will literally blow up. See below for a deeper explanation and how to dig yourself out if you do that. You don't want to do that. If you are using consecutively numbered tracks, that works out to port 8, channel 15 being the highest channel you can use per VePro.AU3 instance. DO NOT CREATE port 8, channel 16 or higher unless you know what you're doing. There are some hints later in this thread for tricky stuff you can do, but don't do that now.

Using the above you can build up 127 tracks under a minute, the 1270 track template I provided above is basically using 10 VePro instances, took 10 minutes to build it.

You don't have to do the whole template at once you can add tracks as you go, just remember that every time you need to add a track on the next port, you have to do the little tap-dance I described above, because of LogicPro internal idiosyncrasies and lack of a GUI option to do it directly. But it works.


Why the Tap-Dance?

Here is a brief explanation for LogicPro nerds.

  1. When you create a new instrument track, LogicPro creates a new instrument channel strip in the environment for you. Usually given a boring name like "Inst 1"

  2. When you change its midi channel from ALL to a specific channel like 1-16, then the track becomes a multi-timbral track, which means its possible to have 15 more tracks pointing to the same internal Inst 1 object with AU2 instruments, and up to 127 total multi-timbral tracks on an AU3 plugin.

  3. When you use the CTRL-RETURN command to create a new track on next channel, LogicPro does a special function, it creates a second channel strip inside the environment but this is a special kind of channel strip, its kind of like an alias to the same internal channel strip you created in step#1 above, but it has its own channel and port values. It would, for example, be pointing also to the internal "Inst 1" object, but has its own unique channel and port settings. If you do this, you can go into the environment and see that there are now two channel strips, both of them are referring to "Inst 1" as the internal instrument object that is hosting VePro.AU3, for example.

    after.jpg
    after.jpg (245.48 KiB) Viewed 12352 times


  4. And so on, you can do that repeatedly until you have 16 of those environment special channel strips, using channels 1-16 and all pointing to the the same internal "Inst 1" object.

  5. Now comes the Tap-Dance. Why? What if you don't do the tap-dance? If you selected the track for Channel 16 and try to do new-track-next-channel, LogicPro doesn't know what to do with that, because its not smart enough about AU3 yet. it doesn't know how to increment past channel 16. So it will instead create an entirely new instrument channel with a new instance of VePro.AU3. You will notice it will be called "Inst 2" and will be using the next internal instrument object which is hosting a new instance of VePro.AU3. That is not what we want.

  6. So to get around this, first we will select that last track, change its track attributes to port2, channel 1. Its still pointing to "Inst 1". That's what we want. But now we have to go back and re-create the 16th channel track again, so go back and use new-track-next-channel on the the 15th one again..and wala, LogicPro will not do the wrong thing it will dutifully create the 16th track on the 16th channel and still pointing to "Inst 1".

So that's why the tap dance and how it works.

I have tried other approaches to see if there is an easier way. Like what if you use SHIFT-CTRL-RETURN (new track on same channel) to copy the 16th track to a new track and then just edit that one to port 2, channel 1?

That would be less steps and less confusing I agree, but unfortunately, that method won't work because when you use the same-channel track creation, LogicPro doesn't create new internal channel strip in the environment like it does for the next-channel command., it just creates a new track that is assigned to the same environment channel strip as the previous track. If you then change the port and channel number on it, you will see that those values in the previous track also change to match it. Both tracks are assigned to the same environment object. So that won't work.

It is also possible to clone the environment special channel strips inside the environment quickly to create 127 of them. However, what I found is then you have to go into each one and set their midi channel. By using the tap-dance described above, the midi channel assignment happens automatically as you go along...so really I feel this is the fastest way. if you get the key commands down you can setup 127 tracks to one AU3 in a minute or less.

If someone figures out an easier way, please let us know on this thread and make sure to submit feature request to Apple to make it easier and automatic to just use new-track-next-channel to create more tracks without any tap-dance at all.

By the way, this explanation also explains a bit why LogicPro will blow up if you go past (port8, channel15). The reason is because internally the environment is only able to create 127 of those special channel strips that are linked to the same internal inst object, such as "Inst 1". If you try to create a 128th one of those environment strips, it ends up blowing up the environment and all of LogicPro will become confused. Its some kind of internal limitation in LogicPro and the environment, at least for now as of version 10.6.


Troubleshooting

The following problems will not happen with the provided template above, except perhaps if and when you try to add more tracks to it or build one up from scratch.

Problem #1

While pressing CTRL-RETURN to create each track of a port, if you accidentally hit CTRL-RETURN again while the 16th channel is selcted, LogicPro will not create a 17th channel track, but it will actually create a new track on a totally new VEP instance, but also having channel 16. This is not that you want. In this case simply selecting the track header and pressing DEL should get rid of the problem to continue on.

Problem #2

If you accidentally CTRL-RETURN past the 127th midi channel (usually port8, channel15), then the problem is a little worse then the previous one. In this case it will not create a new VEP instance channel, it will attempt to create a 128th track on port 8, channel 16, and that will break the entire instrument setup because you're only allowed 127 of those special environment strips per internal inst object.

You will know if you have accidentally done the second mistake if you open up the environment and go to the Mixer layer. You will see many mixer channel strip objects. Some of them will be blank...and when you see a group of blank ones for a particular instrument, that is where you probably messed up.

if you see something like the following, then you will know that this is what you did:

before.jpg
before.jpg (87.09 KiB) Viewed 12352 times



To rectify this situation:

  1. first open the environment.

  2. While the environment window is open, select the errantly created track header on the arrange page. The environment should also highlight the object that is associated with that track header.

  3. Select that highlighted object in the environment and delete it.

  4. The Tracker header should change to a label of "NO OUTPUT". If it doesn't, then you did something wrong. Undo and get it right before the next step

  5. Presuming the track header in the arrange page now says "NO OUTPUT", select that track header and delete it.


After doing that the environment should look more like this without blank looking strips in the environment:

after.jpg
after.jpg (245.48 KiB) Viewed 12352 times



If you're careful not to hit CTRL-RETURN too many times while manually creating AU3 templates, then you shouldn't have either problem mentioned.
Last edited by Dewdman42 on Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:39 pm, edited 35 times in total.
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Re: VEP7 AU3 Template and Instructions

Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:29 pm

-
Last edited by Dewdman42 on Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: VEP7 AU3 Template and Instructions

Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:55 pm

I have a new update about AU3. As mentioned earlier, there has been a limitation of 8 midi ports. This appears to be related to the LPX environment in some way. However, we only had half the answer before, it turns out that the limiting factor is the total number of underlying environment objects that get created for each track feeding a multi-timbral instrument. LogiPro is limited to 127 of those per multi-timbral instrument. The fundamental limitation can be stated perhaps more accurately like this:

You can only have 127 channels feeding into a single AU3 multi-channel instrument, each with unique midi channel/port


But those 127 tracks do not have to be within the first 8 midi ports, they can be spread all over the full spectrum of possible midi ports. You just can't have more than 127 of them. And actually if you accidentally create a 128th track feeding a single instrument, the whole GUI will become messed up. Its possible to fix that when it happens if you read the first post of this thread troubleshooting section, but not friendly.

What does this mean? With VePro7 and AU3, that means you could use all 48 midi ports available in VePro7, using up to 768 separate instrument channels in each VePro instance. If you have some instrument tracks in LogicPro which are a single source track, but using an ArticulationSet or Scripter to channelize notes per articulationID, for example, those are only using 1 out of the 127 source channels/tracks, even while feeding many more channels through scripting into the VePro instance. You can definitely feed up to 768 total midi channels into a single VePro instance under some of those channelizing strategies.

So for example, I quickly made a template, which I will share later, that has 96 single-channel instruments and 31 multi-channel instruments that provide up to 16 channelized articulations on each one. 592 total channels in single VePro instance. This is quite a valuable thing...
Last edited by Dewdman42 on Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VEP7 AU3 Template and Instructions

Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:13 pm

Multi-Channel Instrument Expansion

So here is a workflow for adding some multi-channel instruments per the above...

This involves starting with an existing template and then changing midi channel port assignments on the existing tracks without adding any new tracks. Its very important not to add any new tracks because that will likely result in going over the 127 limitation and throw LogicPro into GUI chaos. So.. follow these instructions and you can setup some much bigger templates if you using any multi-channel instruments (articulations on multiple channels).

So let's say we want to take the 1270 track template provided in the first post of this thread and expand it to include a 16-articulation multi-channel configuration for a few of the source tracks.

  1. Start with the 1270 Track AU3 template provided at the top of this thread.

  2. When you open the template you will see that it is configured for ten VEP instances, with 127 tracks per VEP instance, each track using a unique midi port/channel assignment.

    vep1.jpg
    vep1.jpg (96.78 KiB) Viewed 8295 times


  3. The best way I have found to do this is to start with the last track within a VEP instance folder, and work backwards from there. Select the last track and you will see that its currently configured to port 8, channel 15 in the inspector panel on the left.

    before.jpg
    before.jpg (201.8 KiB) Viewed 8295 times


  4. Change the port to port 48 and the channel to 1. Rename the track if you like to remind you its now on Port 48, channel 1.

    changed.jpg
    changed.jpg (201.87 KiB) Viewed 8295 times

That's actually all there is to it. Now that track will be routed to port 48. If you use an ArticulationSet and/or Scripter to re-channelize notes per articulationID, then they will all be sent to port 48 channels 1-16. Meanwhile you still have 126 regular single-channel tracks left.

If you want more multi-channel tracks, keep working back from the end like I did, select the second to the last track, then assign it to port 47, channel 1, etc... as many as you want.

Pretty easy to do and if you use multi-channel instruments such as PLAY a lot, this will greatly expand how many instruments and articulations you can fit into a single VePro instance. Up to 768 total independent instrument channels in VePro.

if you choose to use my channelizing script, then you can have channelized instruments with more than 16 articulations also, spread across multiple ports. See that here: viewtopic.php?f=45&t=143326
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Re: VEP7 AU3 Template and Instructions

Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:47 pm

Here is an additional different way to create a VePro template, which provides 768 midi channels and tracks per VePro instance. VSL says that LogicPro is limited to only 127 channels on 8 midi ports with AU3, but this is not correct. The limitation in LogicPro is related to environment objects. When you create multi-timbral instrument tracks, underlying environment channel strip objects are created for each of those channels, each one assigned to a port/channel. LogicPro is limited to creating up to 127 of those internal channel strips. Thus, when using the normal multi-timbral approach in LogicPro, where tracks are directly assigned to channel strips, you are limited to 127 unique midi/port tracks.

However, its possible with some simple environment cabling to have all 768 tracks feeding a single VePro instance. This is accomplished by creating 48 Channel Strip objects for each VePro Instrument, corresponding to 48 ports. Each one will be configured as midi channel ALL and the ports 1-48 respectively. Then environment multi-instrument objects are cabled directly to each one of those. The multi-instrument object will provide channelization of channels 1-16.

cabling.jpg
cabling.jpg (59.63 KiB) Viewed 7870 times
config.jpg
config.jpg (13.47 KiB) Viewed 7865 times


This method works very well if you are comfortable using old school midi tracks instead of instrument tracks to record your project, there are pros and cons, but if you want a really big template feeding a single VePro instance, this is how to do it with VePro AU3.

I have provided a template with 1536 tracks feeding two VEP instances. 768 tracks each. let me know if you have any questions about how its setup, or how to expand it if desired.


Notes and Questions

  1. Since the environment multi-instrument will channelize the notes, then any channel assignments configured in an ArticulationSet will be ignored. Use Scripter for articulation channelizing.

  2. I need to test to make sure that PDC works entirely as expected when using environment midi tracks.

  3. I'm not sure if non-midi automation lanes are more hassle this way compared to using normal instrument tracks assigned directly to the instrument channel. Perhaps.

  4. Any other weird stuff related to using old school midi tracks will apply here.
Last edited by Dewdman42 on Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: VEP7 AU3 Template and Instructions

Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:49 pm

Last edited by Dewdman42 on Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VEP7 AU3 Template and Instructions

Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:47 pm

As we go along we are finding out what does and doesn't work with AU3 yet in LogicPro, so I just want to make the following observations to that end (as of LogicPro 10.5)

  1. Apple supposedly added official AU3 support several years ago, but insiders say the developers think it is not fully developed yet. FWIW.

  2. VSL, for similar reasons, is calling their VePro.AU3 plugin as "beta", primarily I think because Apple is saying its not fully done yet.

  3. As of today, the transport sync is not transmitted through the VePro.au3 plugin to the VePro server. so if you try to use any kind of tempo based plugin in VePro, it will not work through AU3, you will need to use AU2. Its not clear yet whether this is due to Apple or VSL, but it doesn't matter. As of today, that doesn't work.

  4. if you try to save Library Patches in LogicPro from AU3 tracks, the port assignment is not currently saved with the patch, so if you use anything other then port 1, that won't be saved with the patch at all.

  5. If you use any non-Apple midi plugins, the port assignment is erased by unaware AU2 midi plugins. Its possible that AU3 midi plugins will not erase the port assignment, but I'm not aware of any Au3mfx plugins at this time, other then what is included in LogicPro, these seem to retain the port assignment, perhaps hey are AU3, I'm not sure. But other third party AU2 midi plugins definitely strip the port assignment if they are used on the channel strip.

Otherwise it seems to be working rather fine. As long as you avoid the above points #3 and #4.
Last edited by Dewdman42 on Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: VEP7 AU3 Template and Instructions

Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:51 pm

Thank you for these awesome templates and scripts. I'm in the process of rebuilding the template and i'm trying to figure out the most effective way. I've been working with key switching and using Articulation ID to trigger key switches in a single Kontakt instrument. Do you have any Video walkthroughs of this setup?
 
skramsino
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Re: VEP7 AU3 Template and Instructions

Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:31 am

Great work, Dewdman! Where can I learn more about routing audio from VEpro into Logic? I am at a loss trying to figure this out in the Logic mixer. Are there routings already set up inside your templates?
Cheers,

Henrik
 
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Re: VEP7 AU3 Template and Instructions

Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:50 am

Create the outputs in vepro, then in logicpro hit the mixer + button to add them they will appear as aux channels. This is basic operation explained in the vepro manual and the logicpro manual
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skramsino
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Re: VEP7 AU3 Template and Instructions

Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:07 pm

Is the "VEPAU3-1270-tracks" not using the VEPro AU3 multi-output plugin? Because my outputs inside VEPro is limited to 1/2 only when connected to this plugin. Logic doesn´t offer any external inputs, plus-signs are not present on the instrument tracks in the mixer.

Edit:
Either way, setting it up from scratch from your excellent guide, and it look all good now. Thanks.
 
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Re: VEP7 AU3 Template and Instructions

Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:07 pm

In the vepro manual you will find stuff you need to set in vepro preferences to enable more outs.
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alcatri
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Re: VEP7 AU3 Template and Instructions

Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:39 pm

Thanks so much for all of this! It is extremely helpful for a lot of us starting with VEP and wanting to get it right from the beginning!

I am facing a very weird problem... this system works well for me when using both the server and Logic on the same computer but when I run logic on another computer and connect to the server with exactly the same template I use when loading Logic on the same computer, it only communicates with Port 1

I've tried everything... all your templates, starting from scratch, adding the extra bit in case CC99 wasn't acknowledged... nothing - The only thing I can play is all instruments loaded in port 1 of each instance

Then I open exactly the same server project and exactly the same logic file but on the same computer and all works fine...

Any ideas would be massively appreciated!

I know AU3 works good to connect with different ports now but all my routing in VEP and Logic is done for this workaround which took me ages to do!

Many many thanks in advance!

Alfonso
 
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Re: VEP7 AU3 Template and Instructions

Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:59 am

The template above is designed to work with AU3 and vepro7. The old multi port macro based templates are designed to work with the AU2 vepro plugin and vepro6. I have never tried them with vepro7. There is another thread dedicated to the old templates,

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=137085

but why do you feel you need to use those?
Last edited by Dewdman42 on Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VEP7 AU3 Template and Instructions

Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:02 am

skramsino wrote:
Is the "VEPAU3-1270-tracks" not using the VEPro AU3 multi-output plugin? Because my outputs inside VEPro is limited to 1/2 only when connected to this plugin. Logic doesn´t offer any external inputs, plus-signs are not present on the instrument tracks in the mixer.



Ps i can’t remember if I made the template using multi-out version of the plugin but in logicpro you can easily change the plugin mode without redoing the whole template. Nonetheless it sounds like you did rebuild template from scratch so at least you know how to do that now
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alcatri
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Re: VEP7 AU3 Template and Instructions

Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:25 pm

Hi guys! Any ideas why Logic only talks to port 1 over LAN and can talk to all ports when Vienna server loaded on the same computer?

Both with AU3 and “original” plugin

Thanks in advance!
 
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Re: VEP7 AU3 Template and Instructions

Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:21 am

Check vepro preferences on the remote slave
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alcatri
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Re: VEP7 AU3 Template and Instructions

Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:21 am

Thanks so much - I cannot see anything there that is not configured properly.

I am attaching a screenshot of my preferences in case you can spot something I am unable to identify!

Many thanks again for your replies and help!

Alfonso

Image