New Environment Parameter Sequencer

Hi!

After last week's successful environmental collaboration between me and my mentors Ski and Fader8, I decided to take the ball on this one and create a very cool 8x3 Sequencer for you guys.

Simply patch the output of the SI channel into it and then patch it back into the same channel creating a loop back. If you want to record automation, patch in a transformer set to "automation split" before the loop back.

It has two modes, arpeggiator ON/OFF. It also allows you to set the arp's resolution with a fader while giving a readout of the resolution above it.

NOTE: Logic's transport must be running whether you're using the apeggiator or not. Oh, and check out the cool lights!

I welcome any additions and modifications... my next task is to add a few more rows and extend it to 16 steps! I had some weird timing issues dealing with how midi gets routed and delayed in the environment. I kind of figured it out... but more on that later. (Just beware when you start re-routing stuff!)

I hope that Ski and Fader8 will jump in on this!! Have fun.

Steve

ParaQuencer 3.logic.zip

This is cool.. but you could simply draw in the parameter values straight in the Hyper Editor without the need for any environment tweak!!

Yeah, but try changing timing resolution on the fly or getting the parameters to phase against the note timing or using the hyper editor live! It's just more fun, more analog-like and "cooler" in the environment!

Oh, by the way, I neglected to mention that in order to capture the parameter you must enable the parameter button and jiggle the knob on the SI you want to control. It shuts itself off automatically (thanks to Ski !)

Yeah, but try changing timing resolution on the fly or getting the parameters to phase against the note timing or using the hyper editor live! It's just more fun, more analog-like and "cooler" in the environment!

 

Oh, by the way, I neglected to mention that in order to capture the parameter you must enable the parameter button and jiggle the knob on the SI you want to control. It shuts itself off automatically (thanks to Ski !)

Point taken! I guess I needed to be sold.

I agree it's fun/easy to use with your environment. Probably a great tool to come up with a riff, a pattern, ideas... what I like with the Hyper Editor is the flexibility. Want to automate 4 parameters? Takes 2 seconds to set up. Want 16 simultaneous parameters operating at different resolutions? No problem. Want to loop one pattern for 8 bars, then another for 4 bars, then stop automating, etc... just arrange the "automation regions" in the Arrange area.

It seems your environment is more a "live" tool, or a tool to get ideas going fast, while using the Hyper Editor lends itself better to composing with the mouse.

...composing with the mouse...

I generally prefer to collaborate with more advanced life forms such as the lemur which has opposable thumbs. But YMMV...

Steve, this is very cool! I'm traveling today so I'll have a gander later tonight/tomorrow.

...composing with the mouse...

 

I generally prefer to collaborate with more advanced life forms such as the lemur which has opposable thumbs. But YMMV....

My previous collaboration was with a 200 pound chimpanzee. I had to cut it short as we were getting "too close" and she was giving my teenagers dirty looks.

Looks cool, Steve. I'll have a look-see-listen at it tonight.

...composing with the mouse...

Steve, this is very cool! I'm traveling today so I'll have a gander later tonight/tomorrow.

Hmmm, all these animal references... gander, lemur, mouse. Perhaps I should sequencing genes instead!

Hi Steve!

I checked out your sequencer -- really nice work, kudos!!

What's funny is that last week I was building a step sequencer that's quite similar in design and layout, even down to the LED's (though mine are all green. No, I changed them to red. No, now blue...) But I'm not saying "yeah, I have one just like it at home... " (LOL). Rather, I'd like to share a few things with you O Envoy of the Environment!

I have a scheme for driving the LED's that uses fewer "moving parts". It requires only two transformers and uses mapping in one of them to take care of turning the LED's off at the appropriate time.

One thing I noticed is that both of our sequencers have a similar problem when used with various Logic analog-style synths --- even though our sequencers are designed to output values that snap from one to the next, the actual sound of those transitions comes across as smoothed. For instance, if you were to use one row to alternate the cutoff between fully closed and fully open, the sound wouldn't sound like it's sharply gated. Rather, it will sound more like "wah wah wah".

I've worked on this problem for many many hours, and I can't find a solution. The problem is not nearly as bad (or even non-existent) if you use the hyper editor to achieve the same effect. I haven't tried it with hyper draw yet tho. Anyway, have you noticed this too? Let's discuss!

Thanks Ski...

Yeah, re all those bangers and faders to drive the LEDS... I was thinking totally analog! (Showing my Buchla roots!) Also, I was thinking that I wanted to introduce some other functionality that would require all of those stages to remain independent.

For instance, I just expanded the stages to 16 and added a random step select option! Check in out in my next post.

I agree that we have a real "slew rate" issue in that certain "analog" parameters like cut off frequencies slurred... let's work it out. It reminds of how real analog synths would slow down their response time when a lot of resonance was added to a filter.... hmmm.... related?

My faders don't decrement... does any one else out there have this issue?

Most of all, I want to inspire Logic users to explore and learn the environment.

AS Ski the master environmentalist knows... the possibilities are endless.

Check out the latest 16 stage random version below.

OK... I expanded the stages to 16 and added a switch where you can't randomly access your stage presets! This is a very cool way to let the sequencer "improvise" within a given set of controls. I had a Buchla sequencer that had a module called the Multiple Arbitrary Function Generator that had a similar function. I used it all the time!

Notice that the LEDs get a little whacky in arpeggiated random mode. I have a feeling that Ski's LED idea may take care of this in a future release. However, I built in an LED shut off which clears them via a note off.

More development to follow! Have fun....

Steve

ParaQuencer 16 Stage.logic.zip

Hi Steve,

I quit Logic, relaunched, and loaded up your sequencer again. No problems this time with the decrementing faders, so all is well.

I think it'll be easy to make an LED driver that will take care of the requirements for a random selection of LED's. I'll have a think.

BTW, this may not appeal to your Buchla roots at all but I've come up with a way to use your continuous slider to select arpeggiator values but not be able to select the values based on factors of 5. [ crickets @ Steve's place ] OK, so like I said, I didn't think you'd be interested in that...

Regarding the slewing, I recorded the output of my version of the step seq as automation (modulating cutoff) and here was the result:

http://www.score2picture.com/logicpix/seqb4.jpg

You can tell even just looking at the graphic shapes that the transitions between values of filter would sound like it's slewed. But... I then added some additional programming (a MIDI delay) to repeat the previously outputted data 1 tick before each new value was generated, resulting in a nice stair-stepped pattern which I thought would make for sharper transitions:

http://www.score2picture.com/logicpix/seqaft.jpg

Unfortunately, the sonic result was more or less exactly the same.

Hey Ski,

How'd you know I like crickets! Too many nights with patch chords 'round my neck thinking about analog environments! 8)

Gee, taking away all those useless in between arpeggiator resolutions might be fine for you on-the-beat types out there, but for me I want to get rid of the 1/8's and the 1/16ths.

I'd like to see how you got rid of the slewing.. even tho' it didn't make a difference sonically.. which seems even weirder to me.

Regarding the the LED drivers.. I was thinking about having each row be independently programable as to how many steps it had activated to achieve some cool step phasing of the parameters... say 16 by 15 by 13. Though it might produce some cool nonlinear type relationships. I don't think it'll be too hard... although it might effect how we develop the driver design.

I found it really interesting how the midi gets latent within the "soft" cabling of objects... I had to delay a system by a single tick and repatch the outputs of the bangers to balance out some timings.

I love your grasp of multi functional transformers and meta events. I tend to think a bit too discreetly when programming these combinations of objects.

Extra work, too!

Steve

It's taken me a good while to start thinking in terms of consolidated transformer functions as opposed to discreet operations. While it's starting to come to me more naturally, it's not quite as intuitive a process as the analog way of thinking, which is still the most comfortable and familiar to me.

Sometime later today I'll post my version of the sequencer, including the MIDI delay that ensures the creation of the stairstep patterns. I'll post details along with the file. One of the things I included in my design was a variable number-of-steps control, as well as an output scaler (which can itself be MIDI controlled). The other thing about my version is that it takes a more hardcore approach to clocking, details to follow.

Your idea of having variable #-of-steps per row in your sequencer is music to my ears! Now if only we can get this thing to actually step instead of slew...

Cool... too bad we've been relegated off the main forum into the "Templates and Environments " tributaries.

Seems to me that these types of discussions and demonstrations, though not mainstream and linear, are important to the larger Logic community for continued growth and education of Logic and ALL its possibilities rather than just the more obvious stuff.

Especially now that Max is being incorporated into Live, perhaps Logic users who are interested in real time, live processes will be given some real respect.

Please David, throw us a line and bring us back from the banished backwaters of the forum!

Especially now that Max is being incorporated into Live, perhaps Logic users who are interested in real time, live processes will be given some real respect.

Keep in mind that tools like Max or Kontakt scripts are much more powerful, in particular for algorithmic tasks. Logic's environment is definitely not designed for this. It may be fun to explore the possibilities just like messing around with a vintage car, but that's not attractive for people interested in modern technology.

I agree that we have a real "slew rate" issue in that certain "analog" parameters like cut off frequencies slurred... let's work it out. It reminds of how real analog synths would slow down their response time when a lot of resonance was added to a filter.... hmmm.... related?.

Yup, sort of. I've run into this in Kontakt too, and had some correspondence with NI about defeating smoothing on certain engine parameters in Kontakt's scripting. The bottom line is that some parameters can't change quicker than the dwell time needed to process a given stimulus. If it could be overridden you'd get ugly zipper and chirpy noise. You can make this happen sometimes when you adjust the "smoothing" parameter on Logic's High or Low Pass Filter plug-ins. Try automating its cutoff with the sequencer. You'll see you cant go below 10mS. Filtering and such is a bit more computationally involved than, for example, volume is, which is just a simple matter of switching bit values.

Keep in mind that tools like Max or Kontakt scripts are much more powerful, in particular for algorithmic tasks. Logic's environment is definitely not designed for this. It may be fun to explore the possibilities just like messing around with a vintage car, but that's not attractive for people interested in modern technology.

Fred, you know I luvs ya man, but in this case I think you're totally missing the point. Here's an example: yesterday I was traveling with my wife Sharon from LA to Fort Lauderdale. To pass the time at the airports and on the plane we decided to play cribbage. We had a deck of cards but no scoreboard. So with about 67% battery left in my G4 powerbook, I opened Logic and, a few buttons and Meta Events later we had a scoreboard! I double-triple-quadruple-dare you with nobs on to do that with Kontakt!

Hey Steve and Everyone,

Attached is the version of a step sequencer I've been working on ("Steppy"). There are still some problems with it, so consider this a beta. A few essential details follow, with more to come if anyone's interested.

• Instead of using the arpeggiator to clock the sequencer, I'm using a series of 16th notes (C3) in a looped region on a separate track. These feed into a separate input of Steppy. This input will also accept C#3 (to reset the step sequence) and also CC#1 which will remote-control the Scale parameter.

• The number of steps is variable from 1 to 8

• The Scale parameter attenuates the output of the faders

• The Learn parameter does not have the auto-off feature per the SuperVector project or Steve's Parasequencer (removed for troubleshooting purposes, but can easily be put back)

• This sequencer uses faders to set the values of a map within a transformer. Another single fader (counter) gets "banged", and its data is fed into a transformer wherein the discreet "fader" messages are formed and outputted.

• The "Sharp Transition" switch repeats the fader data in an attempt to make the transitions between steps sharper. The clocking I'm using in this experiment/demo is 16th's, so the delay is set to just shy of a 16th note. This doesn't achieve the desired result although it produces the desired output. Might as well take it out.

Anyway, have fun!

Steppy1.1.logic.zip

ski, your arguments are unbeatable as always.

And "Steppy" looks quite impressive, technically and aesthetically appealing.

Just like a Bugatti straight-8 cylinder engine.

Keep in mind that tools like Max or Kontakt scripts are much more powerful, in particular for algorithmic tasks. Logic's environment is definitely not designed for this. It may be fun to explore the possibilities just like messing around with a vintage car, but that's not attractive for people interested in modern technology.

 

Fred, you know I luvs ya man, but in this case I think you're totally missing the point. Here's an example: yesterday I was traveling with my wife Sharon from LA to Fort Lauderdale. To pass the time at the airports and on the plane we decided to play cribbage. We had a deck of cards but no scoreboard. So with about 67% battery left in my G4 powerbook, I opened Logic and, a few buttons and Meta Events later we had a scoreboard! I double-triple-quadruple-dare you with nobs on to do that with Kontakt!

 

Well, no surprise there that Sharon was woopin yer butt at cribbage, again . . .

Tell her I'm up for a rematch too, soon.

Fred, while your point is well taken if viewed in the context of the level of development when looking at Logic's environment vs. Kontakt scripting or Max, it's not really comparing apples to apples. For example, anyone with a modicum of MIDI knowledge and half a brain can create a useful process in the environment, right within their project, and try various things in real time. It doesn't have to be pretty, it doesn't have to be compiled and it doesn't have to be perfect as long as it gets the job done. It could certainly be better, but in a way it remains elegant in that simplicity.

Kontakt scripting is powerful but has its limitations too. It also requires a bit of getting used to the syntax involved. Making user interfaces for your scripts is no picnic either. I'd love to see this scripting implemented in some kind of LabView graphical programming interface, like Reaktor, but that's doubtful as NI seems more focused on new product development than modernizing existing products.

Max, on the other hand, is kind of the best of both worlds. Even though it's old from a technology perspective, it's been highly developed over the years so there is an abundance of objects that provide tools to perform tasks very efficiently. But it's a sizable learning curve to take on, even for a professional composer/sound designer. And if you don't use it regularly, well, you know how that goes.

Looking at it from a "modern technology" perspective, I'm not sure it would be wise for the Logic developers to spend time tweaking the environment functionality until we have an accepted new standard for high resolution MIDI. I think we just need to be patient with that.

Fred, while your point is well taken if viewed in the context of the level of development when looking at Logic's environment vs. Kontakt scripting or Max, it's not really comparing apples to apples. For example, anyone with a modicum of MIDI knowledge and half a brain can create a useful process in the environment, right within their project, and try various things in real time. It doesn't have to be pretty, it doesn't have to be compiled and it doesn't have to be perfect as long as it gets the job done. It could certainly be better, but in a way it remains elegant in that simplicity.

I completely agree that the environment is handy for simple tasks like routing and transforming incoming MIDI. But unfortunately it's even needed for basic standard operations like eg. input port selection. IMHO, the developers should redesign/unify the overall routing structure of Logic, and replace the environment by decent support of MIDI plugins.

@ fader8 -- I'll have you know that the tide turned on that game, though unquestionably she has an innate gift for givin' her opponents a whoopin'. She's got a savant-like quality at backgammon for sure. So next time we get together I suggest we play Scrabble, though it's not like she can't spell either...

@ Fred --

I hear ya about the environment. It is without question outdated in many respects, but as you know remains highly useful for many many practical purposes, cribbage boards and magic 8-balls notwithstanding. I'd hate to see it go entirely were Logic to ever be revamped.

Hey Ski,

Steppy makes my little sequencer look downright bloated... I'm embarrassed to say I added more features this morning, sprucing it up a bit for tonight's NY Logic Users Group meeting. I'll take a deeper look at Steppy tomorrow.

Fred:

I realize that the environment it antiquated, however there is a ton of power there for those wiling and interested. For instance, I recently scored two iPhone games that were created compositionally in the environment... no notes on the arrange... using algorithmic techniques. Lots-O-Fun there for me!

Steve

Hey Ski,

 

Steppy makes my little sequencer look downright bloated...

Naw, not at all --- Did you turn off "protect positions and hide cables" and see? There's plenty of bloat in handling the LED's. Originally it was just two transformers (as previously advertised) but then I got picky about what happened when the # of steps was changed to a number lower than 8: i.e., if you happened to lower the # of steps when the 8th LED was on, it stayed on. Can't have that, can we? Noooooooo, not in Mr. Nitpicky's Environment Workshop we can't!

I'm on Fla. for a little while longer, so please send my best regards to NYC.

http://www.logicprohelp.com/files/picture_5_168.jpg

Amazing what a transformer can do...

That's in a different layer.

You should see the layer that has the bean grinder. It's amazing because it uses the arpeggiator to regulate the different speeds. It doubles as a juicer too.