Loudness: What LUFS Level To Master At?

Background: My music uses mostly real instruments; it's kind of rock-pop and guitar-centered. No EDM, House, or true Pop. It is not likely a "big radio" candidate but could get Alternative and/or Indie play.

 

Bob Katz posted to Facebook that the AES is going for -20 to -16dB LUFS (Loudness Units Full Scale) for mastering. Ian Shepherd on YouTube goes for similar. Loudness War soldiers go for -8 or even 6dB.

 

I am not trying to start a loudness War discussion. I'm more interested in how to fit the current streaming and digital delivery paradigm we all face.

 

These various "standards" are enough to confuse me. When I master at -10.5 LUFS I compromise between loudness war and the AES (weighted toward loudness war).

 

When I try -16 and compare to -10.5, I am thrilled with the dynamics of -16. When I listen to -10.5 the material is nice an loud but squashed.

 

I'm approaching a release and have to decide.

 

Since I want to stream on Spotify, Pandora, Apple Music, etc., I should go low (toward -16) because they all add compression which makes loud masters less good sounding. If I want to have material for download on Bandcamp and ITunes Store, etc., I want it louder but not stupid loud. I am not planning physical product (CD or vinyl).

 

I'm considering hiring a real mastering engineer for my final product but simply cannot afford two complete masters… so I need to tell the ME what I'm going for.

 

What LUFS level should I shoot for?

What LUFS level should I shoot for?

 

The one that sounds best to you. 8)

These various "standards" are enough to confuse me. When I master at -10.5 LUFS I compromise between loudness war and the AES (weighted toward loudness war).

 

When I try -16 and compare to -10.5, I am thrilled with the dynamics of -16. When I listen to -10.5 the material is nice an loud but squashed.

Most pop/rock music can go to around -11 LUFS integrated and still sound great when mastered. It shouldn't sound squashed if it's produced and mixed properly and mastered by a good mastering engineer. Sometimes a few pointers from your ME can help identify and fix potential bottlenecks in the mix before mastering.

 

Since I want to stream on Spotify, Pandora, Apple Music, etc., I should go low (toward -16) because they all add compression which makes loud masters less good sounding.

Except services like Tidal, which offer lossless streaming, they all convert the PCM file (WAV/AIFF) into a lossy streaming format using AAC or MP3, i.e. psychoacoustic data compression. The main problem during lossy conversion is not the loudness itself, but rather the overs caused by inter-sample peaks and overs caused by the the lossy processing when the signal is pulled apart and reconstructed. These overs, and the subsequent potentially audible distortion, can be avoided by lowered the output ceiling of the PCM file until no inter-sample peaks or lossy compression overs manifest themselves. Another option is to use an oversampled limiter, but this comes with its own kind of problems. Other issues to be aware of during lossy conversion is the way the mid-side signals translate, though it's mainly an issue with very low sound quality services like SoundCloud.

 

None of these services add dynamic compression, however. Spotify is the exception because songs lower than approximately -11 LUFS (I) will be gained up into a brickwall limiter. Spotify has the option to turn loudness normalizing off, but it's on by default and studies show that about 98% use the default settings.

 

Many aggregators do not accept separate masters and will only accept one PCM file to be distributed to all services. In that case it could make sense to aim for Spotify (@ approximately -11 LUFS integrated). iTunes, Tidal and other download stores will not change the level of the file while Apple Music will lower it to match their approximate -16 LUFS (I) normalization.

I would be interested to know how one can use Logic to produce a "distributable file," e.g. an MP3, that would realistically simulate what the various on-line services would likely do to your file. In other words, "let's take my master-candidate, feed it through a paper-shredder that more or less simulates how X-service would shred-it and-stick bloody-holes-in-it" ... ... so that I can listen to it and see for myself just how bad it would sux.

I aim for -11 to -10 dB LUFS for electronic dance music (note: not EDM )

 

My kind of music is already pretty loud and doesn't have as much dynamics as "organic" music. I very rarely limit more than 2dB (in average around 1dB) to get this loudness. And I feel I could easily do just -13 dB LUFS, sadly most customer want it louder then

 

Generally, no matter what kind of music, I believe that less than -10 dB LUFS is overkill. -12 is loud enough.

 

I hope I can find a customer one day, where I can go for -14 or even -16 and then test it on a loud and good PA. I bet they'd go crazy when the drop hits

Lagerfeldt: Thank you for thoroughness and good insight. I certainly am not a mastering engineer. I use Ozone 6 for times I have to play songs at songwriter workshops and for my iPhone, studying mixes.

 

Stardustmedia: sounds like I'm at your LUFS level for electronic dance music. That cannot be. My stuff is so much more analog than dance music (electric 12-string and acoustic guitar). BTW, you say "electronic dance music (not EDM)." Am I using the wrong acronym/abbreviation?

 

All in all, for now, I will continue to do my "masters" at -10.5dB and await the help of someone like Lagerfeldt, Katz, Shepherd—if my money holds out.

Stardustmedia: sounds like I'm at your LUFS level for electronic dance music. That cannot be. My stuff is so much more analog than dance music (electric 12-string and acoustic guitar). BTW, you say "electronic dance music (not EDM)." Am I using the wrong acronym/abbreviation?

 

Electronic dance music is a term for all kinds of electronic made music for "dancing". It's a genre, like Rock, or Jazz. EDM is a sub genre of that. Swedish House Mafia, David Guetta, Axwell, Avicii, etc. are all EDM producers.

Electronic dance music is a term for all kinds of electronic made music for "dancing". It's a genre, like Rock, or Jazz. EDM is a sub genre of that. Swedish House Mafia, David Guetta, Axwell, Avicii, etc. are all EDM producers.

Here's my favorite quote on the topic:

 

Noobs call everything EDM simply because they don't know the history and the sub genres. Oldz call everything new they hear and don't understand EDM because they can't admit they are old and don't understand it.

Source: http://www.magneticmag.com/2015/10/stop-calling-edm-edm-here-is-a-proper-definition/

http://boards.buffalobills.com/images/smilies/pod.gif

Young man, in my time there was no EDM, or more accurately: there was, under a different name: Disco. It had its critics.

I would be interested to know how one can use Logic to produce a "distributable file," e.g. an MP3, that would realistically simulate what the various on-line services would likely do to your file.  In other words, "let's take my master-candidate, feed it through a paper-shredder that more or less simulates how X-service would shred-it and-stick bloody-holes-in-it" ... ... so that I can listen to it and see for myself just how bad it would sux.  

 

This maybe?

 

https://www.sonnox.com/plugin/codec-toolbox

I believe isotope Ozone 7 Advanced has a CODEC emulation feature. Unfortunately, Ozone Advanced is expensive software.

or sonnox fraunhofer codec. also expensive though.

I would be interested to know how one can use Logic to produce a "distributable file," e.g. an MP3, that would realistically simulate what the various on-line services would likely do to your file.  In other words, "let's take my master-candidate, feed it through a paper-shredder that more or less simulates how X-service would shred-it and-stick bloody-holes-in-it" ... ... so that I can listen to it and see for myself just how bad it would sux.  

 

This maybe?

 

https://www.sonnox.com/plugin/codec-toolbox

Yeah, but I think it cannot do it "live". Fraunhofer Pro-Codec can have up to 5 different settings and then you can compare them on-the-fly. But it's expensive. 

If you have to do that a lot, Pro-Codec will save you a lot of time, thus it'd be absolutely worth its price

Off topic:

 

RMS? 

Never heard of her....

 

 

 

Please DO NOT master for this kind of LUFS 

 

PS: It's not one of my tracks 

Off topic:

 

RMS? 

Never heard of her....

Looks like something went wrong with your compression settings somewhere after the 5:00 mark and you started losing a bit of level there. Running the whole master through a poured concrete limiter should take care of those little imperfections. 

Off topic:

 

RMS? 

Never heard of her....

Looks like something went wrong with your compression settings somewhere after the 5:00 mark and you started losing a bit of level there. Running the whole master through a poured concrete limiter should take care of those little imperfections. 

As I said, it's not my track. Such a rookie mistake, like losing level in the break, would never have happened to me. I usually add a third and fourth limiter to the master buss, that are un-bypassed as soon as the break starts, to even out the RMS at -1.2dB 

http://boards.buffalobills.com/images/smilies/pod.gif

Disco. It had its critics.

"Dear God, I was there ..." My (still(!!)) wife and I paid real money and bought real popcorn to watch this ... 

 

And ... (aww, sh*t ...) it actually was good stuff.  (Still is ... take a look ...)  A Chorus Line™ on steroids.  (Sux for you that you weren't born yet ...)  :wink:

 

Seriously:  these are modern-dance sequences that you probably don't want to miss . . . 

So confused isn't he top circled RMS in the range of Pop music? 11bd-8db yet the LUFS is 8.67?