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treating guitars: phase issues when layered guitars


lethalrush

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I have a single DI guitar take pumped into a bus feeding three auxes.

 

The auxes each have a different Guitar Rig config on them and together I have a really good sounding tone.

 

one aux is dead center, one panned left 25 pts, one right 25 pts.

 

However, listening in the car reveals extremely weird phase issues, and examining the waveform verifies this (though I'm not certain what an acceptable difference in phase between left and right channels for a distorted guitar tone would be).

 

Sliding the right channel a few samples here or there doesn't solve the problem.

 

Any suggestions?

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I never liked those "fake" doubling techniques. They always result in a thin, flangy sound.. with phasing problems, as you realize now.

 

If you want to double, triple, quadruple tracks, whether they are vocals, guitars or any instruments, the best technique is to actually double it.

 

Think of a classical orchestra. Why do you think, when all the strings kick in playing a phrase in unison, you get a choked feeling in your throat, and tears come to your eyes? It's because the sound is so thick, it's dozens of voices singing the same musical phrase that trigger the emotion. You will never ever get even close by taking one violin recording and sending it to auxes and using clever delay, pannings and EQs. All you'll get is a weird phasy violin sound.

 

Same with voices, or guitars.

 

So.. the solution? A little more "real" work, a lot less clever technical processing.

 

Record the guitar part several time. Want to layer 6 guitars? Record the same riff 6 times. Try to play it exactly the same way, down to the timing of the string muting, and the dynamic variations. The beauty of the human nature is that you will never get it exactly the same twice: you bend your strings ever so slightly resulting in tiny pitch differences, the timing is slightly off.. that's what creates the thickness and the emotion.

 

This can be amplified by using different guitars, different pickup configurations, different picks, different amps (or later different amp modeling in Logic).

 

Trust me, THAT's the sound you want!!

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Okay thanks a lot;

But won't there most definately be phase issues with two takes as well? It's the same instrument playing the same notes. Yes there will be many subtle variations between each, but ultimately they are the same general waveform.

 

I recorded two takes of the same part, panned them, and then Guitar Rigged them with the same preset on Left, and then another channel with exact same preset on Right, and it sounds super-phasey...

 

??

 

Great description of your reaction from a string section.

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I totally agree with David.

 

Also, if you do have a real amp, or you can get your hands on one from a friend, the guitars will sound waaaaay better than any plug-in.

 

Has to be valve of course!

 

I used to use Guitar Amp Pro and it does do what it's supposed to do very well...but now I have a Vox AC30 I'm never looking back!

 

The human element of replaying the same part would suggest less chance of phase problems, wouldn't it?

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Phasing only occurs when you use the same 'source' material.... eg. a kick drum with 2 mic's on it could have phase issues, a kick drum recorded twice with 1 mic on each take won't.

 

I agree with Davids take on getting a good guitar sound. What I aim for when I'm doing this is to use the different take to fill out the sonic spectrum.. then double it and pan it. I will use 2 different amps to make up each guitar track (recording the guitar separately for each amp), one to carry the bottom, and one to add 'cut', pan left and mix them.... then do the same with the right side.

 

What I realized about amp modeling that helped me out is that it doesn't sound like a guitar amp... it's not supposed to. It sounds like a guitar amp with a mic in front of it. Do whatever you want to do to get the sound you want.

 

Luke

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Phasing only occurs when you use the same 'source' material.... eg. a kick drum with 2 mic's on it could have phase issues, a kick drum recorded twice with 1 mic on each take won't.

 

Yeah that's right...in some cases you can move the other mic 3 times the distance away to stop the phase problem. Although that's not always possible in a drums situation of course.

 

Guitar Amp modeling only works as a good substitute, nothing compares to the real thing. I used to think a great guitar sound was possible with a modeling plug-in, but only an imitation of a great sound is possible.

 

Same goes for the emulation of the mic in front of it.

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Guitar Amp modeling only works as a good substitute, nothing compares to the real thing. I used to think a great guitar sound was possible with a modeling plug-in, but only an imitation of a great sound is possible.

 

Same goes for the emulation of the mic in front of it.

 

 

Well.... to each his own I guess :D

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I don't know why I'm biting Confused (I've done the whole valve vs. DSP argument over and over again) but my Line 6 Vetta amp is just about the best rig I've ever owned. I'm working on some punk band recordings at the moment, will post some audio soon Smile

 

Funny thing is, there is no argument to be made, because it is a fact that (at the moment) nothing beats the sound of a valve amp.

 

I own a POD (which I am selling soon actually) and it has to be the most horrible sound I have ever had the misfortune to work with. I bought it on a heads up from a friend..worst advice ever!

 

Then again, my other friend owns a Flextone and doesn't get a bad sound. I'm sure the Vetta amps sound good too, but please, everyone who is in the know, knows that valves are just better. More pleasing to the ear, richer, more human, less harsh...

 

I'm not one of those analogue snobs though, I use digital pedals with my amp, because if it sounds good, it sounds good. That's why I don't see anything wrong with DSP amps if that's what you want to use.

 

But the first time I realised why I wasn't getting the guitar sound I could hear on records was when I knew I needed a valve amp.

 

Look at the majority (if not all) of famous and not so famous artists signed to record labels...would they use a DSP amp? I don't think so somehow. DSP amps don't cut through live either.

 

I could go on, but I'll leave it there.

 

EDIT: Although, I will submit that the solid state sound is very important in conjunction with valve in some situations. Some guitar sounds require that sound.

 

To be honest, if it sounds good, it sounds good. But valve sounds better.

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I know, wrong forum for this...but....

 

Real amps only sound good if you know how to mic and record them.

You can take amazing tone in the room and turn it to s#!+ very quickly by trying to get it to tape. I've been doing this a long time and only recently have I started getting closer to printing what's in the room.

 

I use a Sm-57 and a Royer 121 ribbon (that's what really made the difference) and a good large condesor room mic about 8 ft back and at ear height (where I would usually stand).

And I would NEVER use anything digital in front of the amp. Print the big tone and add the digital crap to the recording.

 

But if I'm in a hurry or just for something different, I use amp sims all the time and can usually make it sound pretty good.

 

lethalrush-

on your new doubletracked tracks use GTR rig on one and GTR amp pro on another. Now what do you get?

Sometimes I bus two doubled tracks to a bus and add one stereo gtr amp pro.

Maybe try that with GTR rig?

You migh also try turning the PDC, delay compensation on set for ALL.

 

Whatever you do, turn it up. Geetars for some reason always sound better loud!!!

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Not sure who Mr. Abiss is...

I just got tired of not being able to get what I heard in the room onto tape.

I have some really great amps, old Fenders and a Marshall among others and I use tape echo, so it sounds pretty great.

It seemed like every article I read in EQ or MIX mentioned using a Royer 121 on the amp. So I got one and there it was!!

I picked up the blending idea from Ross Hogarth's pics on the Royer site, which by the way has some great micing tips from guys like Bruce Swedien.

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Phasing only occurs when you use the same 'source' material.... eg. a kick drum with 2 mic's on it could have phase issues, a kick drum recorded twice with 1 mic on each take won't.

 

Luke

 

This isn't necessarily true. Probability would dictate that it's unlikely you'll have much of an issue, but it *is* possible that those two rcordings might have a good bit of phasing (destructive interference) if the performance is the same, and nothing changes about the recording set-up. Anyone who's ever tried to layer two kick drum samples only to have the resulting sound be *thinner* than either sample has come across this situation.

 

In fact, this is something to consider when double tracking a guitar or a vocal. As David points out, you want to make the performance as dead-on accurate as you can for each doubling, but the magic in doubling comes from the *differences* in the two parts, not in the similarities. Sometimes, folks doubling a vocal, for example, record the two vocal takes, put them up, and there *is* a lot of phasing, because the performance was very close, and the recorded sound is exactly the same.

 

The solution is to move the singer for the doubled part. Take a step 6" back and 6" to the side, and the vocalsits' relationship to the mic is different enough that you'll minimize phasing issues, and get a better result from doubling. For a third part, move them the other way, etc.

 

On electric guitar doubling, move the mic, switch a pickup, swap out the mic, etc. You want enough differences in the basic timbre to avoid phasing issues. For acoustic guitar doubling, again push the player back 6", or have them twist their body position slightly in relationship to the mix, move some reflective baffles, and so forth.

 

I had to mix a tune earlier this year where the lead vocal doubling was so dead-on, it all sounded like hard comb-filtering. Unuseable, so I rerecorded the double, fed through a gently modulated delay, into the studio space through a loudspeaker and brought that back into the mix, and it worked pretty well.

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