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3ple
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What does the "no" mean in a chord?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:12 am

Sometimes certain chords show "no".
What does it mean? This it mean that the note after it, is not being played? So for example, the 3rd is not present in the chord?

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facej
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Re: What does the "no" mean in a chord?  Topic is solved

Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:13 am

That would be an "E Major, no third, flat third, sharp fifth"
Correct - no means no
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musos
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Re: What does the "no" mean in a chord?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:13 am

E no 3 usually means there is no 3rd present in the chord - for example just e and b (no g# or g).
The flat3 in your example is therefore a little confusing - does it mean a minor 3rd (g)?
What notes were you actually playing?
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musos
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Re: What does the "no" mean in a chord?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:16 am

facej wrote:
That would be an "E Major, no third, flat third, sharp fifth"
Correct - no means no

If there is no 3rd, then it can't be E Major (or E Minor for that matter). Some jazz charts show this as E5 (in other words, only the root and 5th are present).
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facej
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Re: What does the "no" mean in a chord?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:23 am

correct - a Capital E usually means major, but with no third you cannot tell. Strike my "major" from the post. Logic will display "E m" if it thinks the chord is minor. I can't get my chord recognizer to display that particular configuration ;-)
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skijumptoes
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Re: What does the "no" mean in a chord?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:39 am

Does it display it if you first play E Major, and then drop the third without releasing E&B?
 
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Re: What does the "no" mean in a chord?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:16 am

Thanks for the feedback!
Yes, without a 3rd, you can't really say if it's minor or major and I don't think that a capital E means major at all, only the letter after that (EMaj or Em, or just E for EMaj, but it's not because it's capital E).

The chord I was playing was actually a CMajor with the bass playing E. Logic doesn't really pick that, though ;)

But thanks for clarifying the "no" part. :)
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Re: What does the "no" mean in a chord?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:18 am

musos wrote:
facej wrote:
That would be an "E Major, no third, flat third, sharp fifth"
Correct - no means no

If there is no 3rd, then it can't be E Major (or E Minor for that matter). Some jazz charts show this as E5 (in other words, only the root and 5th are present).


In Logic, when you only play the root and the 5th, that's what it shows, actually ;)
• Logic Pro X 10.4.6 • M-Audio Fast Track Pro 4x4
• MacBook Pro mid 2010 • macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 • 2.4 GHz Intel Core i5 • 8 GB 1067 MHz DDR3

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musos
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Re: What does the "no" mean in a chord?

Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:44 am

3ple wrote:
The chord I was playing was actually a CMajor with the bass playing E. Logic doesn't really pick that, though ;)

That's simply the first inversion of a C Major chord - 3rd (E) as the root.
Bizarre that Logic doesn't understand that and complicates it to what you saw: E no 3 flat3/sharp5
You should file a bug report...
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Re: What does the "no" mean in a chord?

Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:15 am

musos wrote:
3ple wrote:
The chord I was playing was actually a CMajor with the bass playing E. Logic doesn't really pick that, though ;)

That's simply the first inversion of a C Major chord - 3rd (E) as the root.
Bizarre that Logic doesn't understand that and complicates it to what you saw: E no 3 flat3/sharp5
You should file a bug report...


Since I'm actually playing the CMaj triad AND the E an octave below, it's not assuming it as C. If I don't play the E as part of the triad, then it assumes it's C.
I think it's probably just a way to make you think and see that you're not actually playing a "normal" C chord.
For example, on a piano, an inversion sounds like a C, but if you have a guitar and a bass, where the guitar plays the C chord and the bass plays E, then it sounds different.
That's why I always debate when some people bring theory to explain certain things (this is not the case, of course), because each instrument and the way two different instruments work and sound together, can change how theory is applied. Just because 1+1=2, doesn't mean that it makes sense all the time, depending on the situation. Hope it makes sense ;)

(stupid) example: 1 divided by 2 = 0.5, correct?
Well if I cut an orange in half, now I get 2 halves, so we can write it as 1 divided by 2 = 2
It all depends on the context and what the output is and means. In this case of music, it's subjective depending on the instruments and how they relate
• Logic Pro X 10.4.6 • M-Audio Fast Track Pro 4x4
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musos
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Re: What does the "no" mean in a chord?

Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:36 am

Aside from your points on subjectivity, I believe that Logic is wrong to display this inversion like it does.

I checked and if I play [e e g c] or [e g c e] then the display simply shows C (Major).
If I play [e c e g] though it shows [E no 3 flat3/sharp5] which is an aberration. At worst, it could display Em#5 because the g is the minor 3rd to the e root, but to say no 3 and also flat 3 is a real interpretation problem.

I'll send feedback to Apple...
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musos
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Re: What does the "no" mean in a chord?

Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:43 am

PS:
This faulty display also happens when I play E0 or E2. The inversions I listed above only work with E1 as a bass note.
Very inconsistent.
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3ple
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Re: What does the "no" mean in a chord?

Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:12 pm

My interpretation is: if you play the normal triad and then you play one of the notes from the chord an octave lower, you are not really playing an inversion. An inversion assumes that one or more notes are transposed. Meaning they will not be present in their normal position. If you are playing the normal triad and you also play the E as the bass, that doesn’t qualify as a real inversion. It’s the normal triad plus another note as the bass.
I tried with the G as the bass and it shows me as C. My guess is that since the 3rd is such an important note that defines the chord as Major or minor, maybe that’s what makes it more important than the other notes. I don’t know. Just guessing
• Logic Pro X 10.4.6 • M-Audio Fast Track Pro 4x4
• MacBook Pro mid 2010 • macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 • 2.4 GHz Intel Core i5 • 8 GB 1067 MHz DDR3

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musos
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Re: What does the "no" mean in a chord?

Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:59 pm

Sorry, but your guess is incorrect.
Put simply:
If the root is the lowest note, the chord (triad) is in Root position.
If the 3rd is the lowest note, this is the first inversion.
If the 5th is the lowest note, this is the second inversion.

Of course the sound will be different if the chord is in open or closed position or stretched out over several octaves.
But as far as inversions or figured bass are concerned, it's irrelevant at which octave the notes are played.
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