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aaronbagby
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Can't record learned CCs in real-time?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:40 pm

Hey guys, I need to figure out how I can record CCs into Logic for assigned parameters in Omnisphere and Waves Grand Rhapsody. I'm setting up a live session where knobs will constantly be used on my controller to bring in elements through the song. We'll be doing numerous full playthroughs, each with plenty of MIDI data going in. I've spent days making sure the sounds are where I want them to be, only to realize that when I play back what I just recorded, none of the cc changes are reflected. I saw a thread in which someone suggested having the MIDI tracks on Latch mode, this didn't solve it. I need to figure this out ASAP! I could print to audio in real-time and this would obviously include the controls, but I want to be able to correct things if anything is glaring. Thanks in advance, I'm sure someone here knows what to do.
 
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des99
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Re: Can't record learned CCs in real-time?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:12 pm

When you controller-assign an incoming MIDI CC message to a plugin parameter, that CC message never reaches the sequencer, and cannot be recorded.

Instead, you would be using *automation* to record the movements of the *parameter you are remotely controlling* via the CCs.
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aaronbagby
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Re: Can't record learned CCs in real-time?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:35 pm

des99 wrote:
When you controller-assign an incoming MIDI CC message to a plugin parameter, that CC message never reaches the sequencer, and cannot be recorded.

Instead, you would be using *automation* to record the movements of the *parameter you are remotely controlling* via the CCs.


Thanks for the reply. I get this in principle, but I'm struggling to make it work. I tried setting the MIDI to Latch mode on these two instruments, but doing so doesn't seem possible on the region level ( it just automatically switches back to Track). I need to preserve the automation of each performance, or else it defeats the purpose of doing it live. Any pointers here? Thanks again!
 
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des99
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Re: Can't record learned CCs in real-time?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:04 pm

I take it you aren't familiar with automation in general?

Put the track on Latch mode, hit play, then tweak your MIDI knob that you assigned to a plugin parameter. You should see automation being recorded. When done, set the track back to read mode.

There is region-based automation too, but there's no point regurgitating the manual, that's easy enough to look up and learn how automation works.

Some instruments though, like Omnisphere, have *way* too many parameters to expose to the host, and so there is an intermediate step where you have to enable this in the plugin and I think also choose the automation parameters (can't remember offhand). See the Omnisphere manual for this...

I don't know about the Waves one, but in general, Waves stuff works fine for automation, and there shouldn't be any problems.
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SoSpiro
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Re: Can't record learned CCs in real-time?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:09 pm

aaronbagby wrote:
des99 wrote:
When you controller-assign an incoming MIDI CC message to a plugin parameter, that CC message never reaches the sequencer, and cannot be recorded.

Instead, you would be using *automation* to record the movements of the *parameter you are remotely controlling* via the CCs.


Thanks for the reply. I get this in principle, but I'm struggling to make it work. I tried setting the MIDI to Latch mode on these two instruments, but doing so doesn't seem possible on the region level ( it just automatically switches back to Track). I need to preserve the automation of each performance, or else it defeats the purpose of doing it live. Any pointers here? Thanks again!

use the "learn controller assignment" in logic and remove the midi cc from that same parameter in your synth. don't double map it like that. I've had this same issue recently and it was going back and forth between two different mappings if that makes sense.
Logic pro X Mac OS High Sierra 10.13.6 2.3GHz Intel Core i7 16GB memory 1333 MHz DDR3
 
aaronbagby
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Re: Can't record learned CCs in real-time?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:15 pm

des99 wrote:
I take it you aren't familiar with automation in general?

Put the track on Latch mode, hit play, then tweak your MIDI knob that you assigned to a plugin parameter. You should see automation being recorded. When done, set the track back to read mode.

There is region-based automation too, but there's no point regurgitating the manual, that's easy enough to look up and learn how automation works.

Some instruments though, like Omnisphere, have *way* too many parameters to expose to the host, and so there is an intermediate step where you have to enable this in the plugin and I think also choose the automation parameters (can't remember offhand). See the Omnisphere manual for this...

I don't know about the Waves one, but in general, Waves stuff works fine for automation, and there shouldn't be any problems.


I understand automation modes in general, but I have never attempted what I'm doing now (many live takes). By setting the tracks to "latch", I am able to record the two tracks with all midi data represented. But I do not wish the track to contain the CC data. I want it to be embedded in each region as I played it in the recording without losing each performance's respective automations. Is this not possible? As I said, if "region" automation is selected, the automation mode will only show "read".
 
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des99
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Re: Can't record learned CCs in real-time?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:41 pm

aaronbagby wrote:
But I do not wish the track to contain the CC data. I want it to be embedded in each region as I played it in the recording without losing each performance's respective automations. Is this not possible? As I said, if "region" automation is selected, the automation mode will only show "read".


To be clear - you are not recording CC data. There is no CC data recorded. The incoming CC data is changing a plugin parameter, in exactly the same way as if you were changing that parameter with the mouse, and it's that parameter automation that is recorded as automation (not MIDI) data.

If you can't select an automation mode for region-based automation, you probably haven't selected the region you are automating into. There must be a region created and selected for region-based automation to be associated with, and you can't change an automation mode for a region if you haven't selected a region to change the mode of, if you see what I mean...

Region-based vs Track-based automation
https://help.apple.com/logicpro/mac/10. ... cp967649d0
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aaronbagby
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Re: Can't record learned CCs in real-time?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:02 pm

SoSpiro wrote:
aaronbagby wrote:

Thanks for the reply. I get this in principle, but I'm struggling to make it work. I tried setting the MIDI to Latch mode on these two instruments, but doing so doesn't seem possible on the region level ( it just automatically switches back to Track). I need to preserve the automation of each performance, or else it defeats the purpose of doing it live. Any pointers here? Thanks again!

use the "learn controller assignment" in logic and remove the midi cc from that same parameter in your synth. don't double map it like that. I've had this same issue recently and it was going back and forth between two different mappings if that makes sense.


I've started this process, and I think it will be the winner, but I am having trouble. It doesn't seem to want to learn more than one controller assignment. I have enabled host automation on each parameter I want to control. As I go through and "learn" them in logic's dialog, the previous learned assignment stops working.
 
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des99
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Re: Can't record learned CCs in real-time?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:11 pm

You can learn multiple MIDI controls to multiple parameters in Logic without problems. My own controllers have hundreds of assignments. Probably you're not doing the learn procedure correctly, but it's difficult to know what you're doing unless you document exactly what you're doing...
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SoSpiro
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Re: Can't record learned CCs in real-time?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:15 pm

aaronbagby wrote:
SoSpiro wrote:
use the "learn controller assignment" in logic and remove the midi cc from that same parameter in your synth. don't double map it like that. I've had this same issue recently and it was going back and forth between two different mappings if that makes sense.


I've started this process, and I think it will be the winner, but I am having trouble. It doesn't seem to want to learn more than one controller assignment. I have enabled host automation on each parameter I want to control. As I go through and "learn" them in logic's dialog, the previous learned assignment stops working.

did you try deleting all automation and starting over? sometimes there is an automation point in the beginning of the track which will stir things up as you're trying to create new automation.
Logic pro X Mac OS High Sierra 10.13.6 2.3GHz Intel Core i7 16GB memory 1333 MHz DDR3
 
aaronbagby
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Re: Can't record learned CCs in real-time?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:43 pm

des99 wrote:
You can learn multiple MIDI controls to multiple parameters in Logic without problems. My own controllers have hundreds of assignments. Probably you're not doing the learn procedure correctly, but it's difficult to know what you're doing unless you document exactly what you're doing...


Here is the bet summation of my attempt. I have manually unlearned all of the CC changes I added within Omnisphere. Then for each one, enabled host automation. Then I hop over to the Logic "learn" dialog" and select the parameter I want to learn and toggle the knob. Boom, it works. Awesome.

But when I repeat the process, each previous learned task simply stops working, despite remaining visible and "learned" in the dialog. If there's anything else I can add, please advise. I'm trying to be as detailed as possible.
 
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des99
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Re: Can't record learned CCs in real-time?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:55 pm

aaronbagby wrote:
Then I hop over to the Logic "learn" dialog" and select the parameter I want to learn and toggle the knob. Boom, it works. Awesome.


Which knob? What MIDI data is it sending? What parameters are you trying to control? How many at once?

aaronbagby wrote:
But when I repeat the process, each previous learned task simply stops working, despite remaining visible and "learned" in the dialog. If there's anything else I can add, please advise. I'm trying to be as detailed as possible.


Are you trying to make the same one knob control multiple individual parameters? That won't work, as either it will control only one parameter (deleting any previous parameters that knob was learned to), or it will control *all* of those multiple parameters at once (which is unlikely to be what you want).

You can keep manually learning a new assignment every time you want that knob to control a new parameter (this won't change any written automation, as the automation is for the plugin parameter, which has nothing to do with any control assignments) - but it's a bit of a crappy way to work imo (although it might be ok for your needs).

If you just have one knob, and want to use it to control different parameters for each pass, then you might be better off using Automation Quick-Access mode (again, a quick manual search will tell you how this works and how to set it up).
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aaronbagby
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Re: Can't record learned CCs in real-time?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:24 pm

des99 wrote:
aaronbagby wrote:
Then I hop over to the Logic "learn" dialog" and select the parameter I want to learn and toggle the knob. Boom, it works. Awesome.


Which knob? What MIDI data is it sending? What parameters are you trying to control? How many at once?

aaronbagby wrote:
But when I repeat the process, each previous learned task simply stops working, despite remaining visible and "learned" in the dialog. If there's anything else I can add, please advise. I'm trying to be as detailed as possible.


Are you trying to make the same one knob control multiple individual parameters? That won't work, as either it will control only one parameter (deleting any previous parameters that knob was learned to), or it will control *all* of those multiple parameters at once (which is unlikely to be what you want).

You can keep manually learning a new assignment every time you want that knob to control a new parameter (this won't change any written automation, as the automation is for the plugin parameter, which has nothing to do with any control assignments) - but it's a bit of a crappy way to work imo (although it might be ok for your needs).

If you just have one knob, and want to use it to control different parameters for each pass, then you might be better off using Automation Quick-Access mode (again, a quick manual search will tell you how this works and how to set it up).


No, I'm using different knobs for different elements. I think I've figured it out (at least this part). I have found that it only works if I enable host automation and then learn the assignment for each individual control, and then move to the next, fully repeating. If I enable host automation across the parameters all at once, then go back to learn them all at once, it must do something funny with the Host ID or something, because it causes them all to stop working. A little painful, but good to know. I just got them all to work, but could only make them work on "selected track". In the process of trying to get them to work on the Omnisphere track regardless of which track is selected, they all just vanished. This is really spinning me for a loop.

Edit: To clarify, Omnisphere is shown as INST 4 in MIDI environment. Changing "channel strip" to "Software Instrument" and typing 4 after it causes the name of the "learned" parameter" to change, and it stops working.
 
aaronbagby
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Re: Can't record learned CCs in real-time?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:15 pm

des99 wrote:
aaronbagby wrote:
But I do not wish the track to contain the CC data. I want it to be embedded in each region as I played it in the recording without losing each performance's respective automations. Is this not possible? As I said, if "region" automation is selected, the automation mode will only show "read".


To be clear - you are not recording CC data. There is no CC data recorded. The incoming CC data is changing a plugin parameter, in exactly the same way as if you were changing that parameter with the mouse, and it's that parameter automation that is recorded as automation (not MIDI) data.

If you can't select an automation mode for region-based automation, you probably haven't selected the region you are automating into. There must be a region created and selected for region-based automation to be associated with, and you can't change an automation mode for a region if you haven't selected a region to change the mode of, if you see what I mean...

Region-based vs Track-based automation
https://help.apple.com/logicpro/mac/10. ... cp967649d0



Again, makes sense in principle. However, I still am unclear on this...in simplest terms, is it possible to record multiple passes of MIDI, and have them playback with all automation happening just as it did in respective performance takes, such that I can choose the best one, and correct any minor mistakes before printing to associated audio tracks? I have tried every mode and combination, and gotten nowhere. Thanks again, I have scoured every forum I could find. If this is not possible, I'm simply going to have to record to audio in real-time. I don't want to do this, because I don't want to comp multiple takes of audio performance.
 
SoSpiro
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Re: Can't record learned CCs in real-time?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:42 pm

aaronbagby wrote:
des99 wrote:

To be clear - you are not recording CC data. There is no CC data recorded. The incoming CC data is changing a plugin parameter, in exactly the same way as if you were changing that parameter with the mouse, and it's that parameter automation that is recorded as automation (not MIDI) data.

If you can't select an automation mode for region-based automation, you probably haven't selected the region you are automating into. There must be a region created and selected for region-based automation to be associated with, and you can't change an automation mode for a region if you haven't selected a region to change the mode of, if you see what I mean...

Region-based vs Track-based automation
https://help.apple.com/logicpro/mac/10. ... cp967649d0

you could duplicate the track and do as many passes as youd like on that one and take the best performance which might be annoying, but i've heard mostly of people getting the best hardware take they can then just editing ITB


Again, makes sense in principle. However, I still am unclear on this...in simplest terms, is it possible to record multiple passes of MIDI, and have them playback with all automation happening just as it did in respective performance takes, such that I can choose the best one, and correct any minor mistakes before printing to associated audio tracks? I have tried every mode and combination, and gotten nowhere. Thanks again, I have scoured every forum I could find. If this is not possible, I'm simply going to have to record to audio in real-time. I don't want to do this, because I don't want to comp multiple takes of audio performance.
Logic pro X Mac OS High Sierra 10.13.6 2.3GHz Intel Core i7 16GB memory 1333 MHz DDR3
 
aaronbagby
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Re: Can't record learned CCs in real-time?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:35 pm

SoSpiro wrote:
aaronbagby wrote:
you could duplicate the track and do as many passes as youd like on that one and take the best performance which might be annoying, but i've heard mostly of people getting the best hardware take they can then just editing ITB


Again, makes sense in principle. However, I still am unclear on this...in simplest terms, is it possible to record multiple passes of MIDI, and have them playback with all automation happening just as it did in respective performance takes, such that I can choose the best one, and correct any minor mistakes before printing to associated audio tracks? I have tried every mode and combination, and gotten nowhere. Thanks again, I have scoured every forum I could find. If this is not possible, I'm simply going to have to record to audio in real-time. I don't want to do this, because I don't want to comp multiple takes of audio performance.



Not sure I get exactly what you mean. In this scenario, the goal is for editing to be VERY minimal. The recording is going to be a "live" video. I just need the takes in tact as they were performed.
 
aaronbagby
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Re: Can't record learned CCs in real-time?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:45 pm

In any case, to all who are interested, something very strange is happening. I have programmed these controller assignments probably ten times each, and without fail, they stop working after some time. I really don't know how I'm going to achieve my end-goal here, might just go back to Omnisphere's internal CC Learn and print audio as I go. Thanks again to everyone who has contributed.
 
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David Nahmani
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Re: Can't record learned CCs in real-time?

Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:21 am

aaronbagby wrote:
Again, makes sense in principle. However, I still am unclear on this...in simplest terms, is it possible to record multiple passes of MIDI, and have them playback with all automation happening just as it did in respective performance takes, such that I can choose the best one, and correct any minor mistakes before printing to associated audio tracks?

No. Automation and Recording are two different things, and multiple takes are available only for Recording, not for Automation.

If you record a MIDI CC then yes, you can record multiple takes, the same way you can record multiple takes of MIDI notes. If you assign (a.k.a. learn) a MIDI CC as a controller assignment, then you can use it for Automation, meaning there's only one take possible.

To record the MIDI CC rather than assigning it as a controller assignment, you need to set up that MIDI CC in the plug-in itself to control whatever you want in the plug-in, but not learn it as an assignment using Logic's control surface features.

Hope that makes sense?
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aaronbagby
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Re: Can't record learned CCs in real-time?

Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:13 am

David Nahmani wrote:
aaronbagby wrote:
Again, makes sense in principle. However, I still am unclear on this...in simplest terms, is it possible to record multiple passes of MIDI, and have them playback with all automation happening just as it did in respective performance takes, such that I can choose the best one, and correct any minor mistakes before printing to associated audio tracks?

No. Automation and Recording are two different things, and multiple takes are available only for Recording, not for Automation.

If you record a MIDI CC then yes, you can record multiple takes, the same way you can record multiple takes of MIDI notes. If you assign (a.k.a. learn) a MIDI CC as a controller assignment, then you can use it for Automation, meaning there's only one take possible.

To record the MIDI CC rather than assigning it as a controller assignment, you need to set up that MIDI CC in the plug-in itself to control whatever you want in the plug-in, but not learn it as an assignment using Logic's control surface features.

Hope that makes sense?


This is the sort of definitive answer I was looking for. When you say “record the CC” you just mean having it committed straight to the audio I assume?
 
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David Nahmani
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Re: Can't record learned CCs in real-time?

Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:35 pm

No. I mean record the MIDI CC data to your MIDI track. The data can then be edited, deleted, re-recorded, etc... just like MIDI notes can.
David Nahmani
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