A technical support community for Apple Logic Pro users.

 
scberry
Topic Author
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Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:07 pm

DM10 hi hat continuous control in logic pro X

Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:47 pm

Hello all,

Yes.. I'm a noob to the forum, but, I have been using LP for about 10 projects now..learning more every time. I can usually find what I'm looking for if I look long enough before firing off a post, but I am truly stumped at this point -not exaggerating when I say that I've spent 7-8 hours reading forums and manuals trying to figure this out over the last 10 days. I think I've read pretty much every post regarding this and I'm still a bit confused and, chagrined; so, here we go. THE question:

IS it possible to get the hi-hat to work properly in LPX with DKD or no? I'm using the Alesis DM10 Studio kit via USB.

I'm not a power user; musician first and recording engineer second.

What I figured out:

In the smart controls, you can assign a control parameter to the foot pedal. This allowed the foot pedal to trigger open and closed correctly - provided you click the "invert" button on that parameter, otherwise the feature is works in opposite (pedal depressed was an "open" sound) I'm pretty new to e-drums (just a couple months) but it seemed to my ear that the pedal was functioning with the continuous control. I'm not really a drummer so it's hard to distinguish for me if that was true. But least the pedal was operating correctly in open an closed positions.

However - and I did see this part somewhere else in a forum with no response - What the pedal would NOT do, was "choke" or "clip" the open sound when you depressed the pedal after it was played open.. does that make sense? like if you play 3 beats with a closed hat and then on the 4th beat you strike it open it for the "ssst" sound and then close it again at the top of the next count. Ideally, the "ssst" sound would clip off from the closing of the hihat (in the real world of course) but in LPX the "ssst" just continues to ring out even though I depressed the pedal again, as opposed to clipping or cutting off like on a real kit.

Is this even the right approach??

I've seen posts talking about use EX24.. Is that the way to go? and how?

So..any experience with this? I tried to set up a second parameter on the smart control for the hi hat on DKD ("mute" option) to see if that some how would create the "choke" of the hihat but that just killed any output altogether.

I'm totally willing to take the time that it takes to get this set up right if there is a solution for DKD.. Seems I came across a couple posts that claims other VST's like BFD accomodate this feature, but I really would not rather put out more money until I am sure there is absolutely no solution within LPX itself.

I'll even pay someone to walk me through it. I am completely willing to learn. I am posting on this site because it seems to be a very responsive forum and expedient as well compared to some others I have been visiting; so... I am hopeful :?

Thanks in advance
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scberry
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:07 pm

Re: DM10 hi hat continuous control in logic pro X

Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:51 pm

So, Saturday night staring at numbers and screens instead of playing music :( . I don't know much about midi but I figured since no one has taken a crack at this yet I'll just keep clicking buttons and turning knobs.

Earlier this week I did play around with David N's post about using Environment and "Mapped Instrument" to reassign midi triggers (since the dm10 crash2 does not trigger a sound on it's own that works great to reassign it). I'm trying to figure out if there's something in that solution that applies to this problem.

I unplugged my dm10 kit and plugged my midi keyboard back in via USB and started banging on the hi hat key and using the mod wheel to open and close the hi hat.. it of course works perfectly. I'm looking in the Event window and the keyboard mod wheel shows up as this:

Position: 141 218 (these numbers changed when moving the wheel)
Status: Control
Channel: 1
Number: 1
Velocity: 59 (this number changed to when moving the wheel)
Length/Info: Modulation

It seems there must be someway to tell logic to look at the the dm10 hi-hat pedal the same way it's looking at the mod wheel on my keyboard, no? Nothing shows up as number "1" (everything is a note there) in the mapping on "Mapped Instrument" in the Environment but I know the Environment is pretty powerful (and I have no understanding of it at all!). Isn't there someway to do this??

Anyone??
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scberry
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Re: DM10 hi hat continuous control in logic pro X

Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:30 pm

Update:

I've verified that the dm10 module is sending cc#4 midi out to logic. There's a trigger menu where you can tell the dm10 to not send cc#4 or to send it and it's definitely set to send it out... Still, no one has an idea about this??? getting discouraged. Another weekend slipping away to tech issues instead of playing music :(
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CCTMusic
Posts: 2432
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:34 am

Re: DM10 hi hat continuous control in logic pro X

Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:37 am

Hi

scberry wrote:
Update:

I've verified that the dm10 module is sending cc#4 midi out to logic. There's a trigger menu where you can tell the dm10 to not send cc#4 or to send it and it's definitely set to send it out... Still, no one has an idea about this??? getting discouraged. Another weekend slipping away to tech issues instead of playing music :(



The Drum Kit Designer patches are set up to use MIDI CC1 (Modulation) for the HiHat control. If you cannot change the DM10 to transmit CC1 instead of CC4, you will need to manually change things within LPX.

There are a number of ways you could do this:
Add a real-time transformer (convert CC4 to CC1) in the Clicks and Ports layer of the Environment

CC4 to CC1.jpg
CC4 to CC1.jpg (61.99 KiB) Viewed 5026 times


Or you could switch the Drum Des plugin to the EXS24 and alter the Modulation Matrix parameters
EXS Mod Whl.jpg
EXS Mod Whl.jpg (107.19 KiB) Viewed 5026 times


Probably some other ways too

CCT
MacPro 2x2.9 Quad 28Gb OSX 10.14.x / LPX 10.5.1
MacBook Pro Quad 2.6 16Gb OSX.10.15.7 , LPX 10.6.1
 
scberry
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:07 pm

Re: DM10 hi hat continuous control in logic pro X

Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:28 pm

Oh man..Great! CCT-Thanks for making that clear. I really appreciate it as I'm just beginning to wrap my mind around the Environment, mapping and midi in general -beyond what I've learned from basic editing in the piano roll. I'm going to set that up tonight and try it out!

Additional observation:
I read that BFD2 has a set up that allows you to set the blending of the hi-hat sounds from closed to open. I would assume you can do that in the Environment yes? I did see a post somewhere that someone had also set that up with the EXS24.

Are you or anyone willing to take the time to explain it to me or at least point me to a good resource that explains how to dive into the Environment or EXS24 to accomplish this? Is it really necessary? I'm not a drummer's drummer by any means so I don't even know if that is excessive tweaking. Thoughts?

I've read through the Logic manuals that detail both of these elements but even that is still going mostly over my head at this point. I really just wanted to get my edrums to work correctly with DMK in Logic. I thought that would just take a couple hours hahah...down a rabbit hole. That to say, I'm not really wanting to learn how to master Environment or EXS24 right now... But I will if I have to...Just trying to figure out the most efficient means to get done what I need for right now to facilitate recording presently.

From what I understand, the dm10 hi-hat is a one zone trigger.. not sure if I have the jargon right or if that relates to the mixing of tones through the range of the pedal, but thought it might be pertinent info. Much thanks again for any coming replies.
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lasteno
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Re: DM10 hi hat continuous control in logic pro X

Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:28 pm

I have the Alesis DM pro 8, and I having the same issue with the hit hats, with Drumkit Designer,
I'm going to try changing the CC4 to CC1 with the Environment as CCTMusic said to see if it works
 
Nola111
Posts: 285
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Location: New Orleans

Re: DM10 hi hat continuous control in logic pro X

Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:36 am

All, I thought that changing the mapping dropdown to "V-Drums" in the Drumkit Designer extended parameters automatically changed Logic to recognize CC4 for HH control instead of CC1. You shouldn't have to do this in the Environment.
MacBook Pro (2019) 2.3 GHz Intel i9 Eight-Core
64 GB 2667MHz RAM
OSX 10.15.7
Apogee Duet
Logic Pro X 10.5.1
 
scberry
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:07 pm

Re: DM10 hi hat continuous control in logic pro X

Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:33 am

Hi all, thanks for the continued input.

UPDATE:
::sigh:: Welp, I set up my dm10 with a transformer module in the clicks and ports as outlined by CCT Music.

RESULT:
1) Pressing the HHpedal down to the floor triggered the correct sound (clipped or choked sound as if you were stomping the pedal of a real kit. (or maybe it was triggering the closed sound as struck by a stick? I don't know but the sound was a closed one)

2) HiHat pedal moving through it's range seemed to take control of the volume of the open HH sound. There was no change in the type of sound itself, which was the open HH sound all the way through the pedal movement, even at the bottom where it should for sure trigger the HH closed sound when struck with a stick.

3) Striking the HiHat only produced the open HH sound no matter where my foot had the pedal. I could not trigger the closed HH sound in any way.

I then tried to set it up with the ESX24 again as CCT Music outlined

RESULT:
::sigh mixed in with approaching despair::

1) The HiHat only produced the HiHat closed sound (that you would get when striking a closed HiHat). That was it...No matter where or what the pedal was doing, I only got that sound with a stick strike.

Am I just stupid? Am I totally missing steps here or something?? I mean...this should work..right?

Nola, as for the VDrum setting.. it did not make any difference on the Alesis DM10. It's the first thing I tried, figuring it was a no-brainer..but alas..if it's a three way battle between the brains of the dm10, LPX and me...hehehe...looks like a double-team on me :(

Lasteno, did you have any kind of result?

What else could be going on? I find it hard to believe that this wouldn't be solve-able somehow. Any more thoughts?
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CCTMusic
Posts: 2432
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Re: DM10 hi hat continuous control in logic pro X

Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:59 am

Hi

I have (finally ) had a chance to have another look at this:

GM mapping within Drum designer has different notes for open/close hats
GM with CC1 controlling the Hats works CC1 value 0+ closed to val 127=fully open
V Drum does indeed map CC4 to the Hats, but inversely: CC4 value 0 -Open, val 127= closed.

When you switch to the EXS24 to examine the mapping no difference shows up there, so it must be builtin to Drum Designer.

Sounds to me like the Hat pedal is not transmitting the full range of values. It would be worth checking either in the MIDI activity monitor, or by recording the MIDI data and having a look in the Event List.


CCT
MacPro 2x2.9 Quad 28Gb OSX 10.14.x / LPX 10.5.1
MacBook Pro Quad 2.6 16Gb OSX.10.15.7 , LPX 10.6.1
 
scberry
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:07 pm

Re: DM10 hi hat continuous control in logic pro X

Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:55 pm

Thanks CCT.. I'll dive deeper into it again with your notes this evening when I'm home. Much appreciation...
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scberry
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Re: DM10 hi hat continuous control in logic pro X

Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:54 pm

Ok:

in ESX24 I recorded the drum pedal. I switched the CC1 to CC4 as before. I have the SoCal Kit loaded. What I get is a single midi event that registers for the actual pressing of the pedal. Once the pedal is down, the midi event does not record the duration like when you hold down the key on a keyboard. It's just a little blip for the action even if I keep the pedal down.

Pedal down is recording all the way up to 127

There's no event for the pedal in the up position so I assume it goes to "0" but doesn't create an event.

Does this info spark anything?
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scberry
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Re: DM10 hi hat continuous control in logic pro X

Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:12 pm

I. am. so. frustrated.
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CCTMusic
Posts: 2432
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Re: DM10 hi hat continuous control in logic pro X

Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:19 am

Hi

To speed up the diagnosis, try

a) record just the hat pedal movements, open the Event list for that recorded region and post it here

CCT
MacPro 2x2.9 Quad 28Gb OSX 10.14.x / LPX 10.5.1
MacBook Pro Quad 2.6 16Gb OSX.10.15.7 , LPX 10.6.1
 
scberry
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:07 pm

Re: DM10 hi hat continuous control in logic pro X

Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:47 pm

Hi CCT, continued thanks for your interest in solving this. So, I'm posting 5 images.

1) keyboard/mod wheel: DMK set to "GM + Mod Wheel" Works as expected

2) DM10: DMK set to "GM + Mod Wheel" pedal doesn't record CC values

3) DM10: DMK set to "V Drums" - pedal doesn't record CC values

4) DM10: DMK set to "V Drums" Transform set in Envronment - pedal doesn't record CC values

5) DM10: EXS23 set to "SoCal Kit" Src set from CC1 - CC4 - pedal doesn't record CC values (although I could see the slider moving on the EXS24 interface when I pressed the pedal..so it sees something eh?

Thoughts?
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scberry
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Re: DM10 hi hat continuous control in logic pro X

Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:49 pm

1) keyboard/mod wheel: DMK set to "GM + Mod Wheel" Works as expected.

001.jpg
001.jpg (89.87 KiB) Viewed 4937 times
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scberry
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:07 pm

Re: DM10 hi hat continuous control in logic pro X

Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:53 pm

2) DM10: DMK set to "GM + Mod Wheel" pedal doesn't record CC values
002.jpg
002.jpg (74.15 KiB) Viewed 4936 times




3) DM10: DMK set to "V Drums" - pedal doesn't record CC values
003.jpg
003.jpg (74.87 KiB) Viewed 4936 times



4) DM10: DMK set to "V Drums" Transform set in Envronment - pedal doesn't record CC values
004.jpg
004.jpg (81.76 KiB) Viewed 4936 times



5) DM10: EXS23 set to "SoCal Kit" Src set from CC1 - CC4 - pedal doesn't record CC values (although I could see the slider moving on the EXS24 interface when I pressed the pedal..so it sees something eh?
005.jpg
005.jpg (92.68 KiB) Viewed 4936 times
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CCTMusic
Posts: 2432
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Re: DM10 hi hat continuous control in logic pro X

Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:03 pm

Hi

As a test, in a new (empty) project, do the recording on a normal instrument track (ie NOT with drum designer anywhere).

Simply record the pedal movements, take a look in the Event list and post a screenshot here

CCT
MacPro 2x2.9 Quad 28Gb OSX 10.14.x / LPX 10.5.1
MacBook Pro Quad 2.6 16Gb OSX.10.15.7 , LPX 10.6.1
 
scberry
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:07 pm

Re: DM10 hi hat continuous control in logic pro X

Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:25 pm

Ok, I can do that when I get home tonight.

As I understand it, I would:
-Create a new, empty project
-Add an instrument (midi) track (which will default to some kind of synth if I remember correctly)
-Hit record and work the pedal for a few bars.

Correct?
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CCTMusic
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Re: DM10 hi hat continuous control in logic pro X

Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:20 am

Hi

Yep

CCT
MacPro 2x2.9 Quad 28Gb OSX 10.14.x / LPX 10.5.1
MacBook Pro Quad 2.6 16Gb OSX.10.15.7 , LPX 10.6.1
 
scberry
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Re: DM10 hi hat continuous control in logic pro X

Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:35 am

Ok, here it is. Drum pedal being worked only.. Depending on how quickly/hard I pressed down, I seemed to get two notes.
I'm attaching the actual logic file too in case it's serves. And hey, thanks again for continuing to investigate this.

Screen Shot 2013-08-29 at 9.29.49 AM.png
Screen Shot 2013-08-29 at 9.29.49 AM.png (361.26 KiB) Viewed 4897 times


test.logicx.zip
(282.8 KiB) Downloaded 34 times
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