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DM10 hi hat continuous control in logic pro X


scberry

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Hello all,

 

Yes.. I'm a noob to the forum, but, I have been using LP for about 10 projects now..learning more every time. I can usually find what I'm looking for if I look long enough before firing off a post, but I am truly stumped at this point -not exaggerating when I say that I've spent 7-8 hours reading forums and manuals trying to figure this out over the last 10 days. I think I've read pretty much every post regarding this and I'm still a bit confused and, chagrined; so, here we go. THE question:

 

IS it possible to get the hi-hat to work properly in LPX with DKD or no? I'm using the Alesis DM10 Studio kit via USB.

 

I'm not a power user; musician first and recording engineer second.

 

What I figured out:

 

In the smart controls, you can assign a control parameter to the foot pedal. This allowed the foot pedal to trigger open and closed correctly - provided you click the "invert" button on that parameter, otherwise the feature is works in opposite (pedal depressed was an "open" sound) I'm pretty new to e-drums (just a couple months) but it seemed to my ear that the pedal was functioning with the continuous control. I'm not really a drummer so it's hard to distinguish for me if that was true. But least the pedal was operating correctly in open an closed positions.

 

However - and I did see this part somewhere else in a forum with no response - What the pedal would NOT do, was "choke" or "clip" the open sound when you depressed the pedal after it was played open.. does that make sense? like if you play 3 beats with a closed hat and then on the 4th beat you strike it open it for the "ssst" sound and then close it again at the top of the next count. Ideally, the "ssst" sound would clip off from the closing of the hihat (in the real world of course) but in LPX the "ssst" just continues to ring out even though I depressed the pedal again, as opposed to clipping or cutting off like on a real kit.

 

Is this even the right approach??

 

I've seen posts talking about use EX24.. Is that the way to go? and how?

 

So..any experience with this? I tried to set up a second parameter on the smart control for the hi hat on DKD ("mute" option) to see if that some how would create the "choke" of the hihat but that just killed any output altogether.

 

I'm totally willing to take the time that it takes to get this set up right if there is a solution for DKD.. Seems I came across a couple posts that claims other VST's like BFD accomodate this feature, but I really would not rather put out more money until I am sure there is absolutely no solution within LPX itself.

 

I'll even pay someone to walk me through it. I am completely willing to learn. I am posting on this site because it seems to be a very responsive forum and expedient as well compared to some others I have been visiting; so... I am hopeful :?

 

Thanks in advance

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So, Saturday night staring at numbers and screens instead of playing music :( . I don't know much about midi but I figured since no one has taken a crack at this yet I'll just keep clicking buttons and turning knobs.

 

Earlier this week I did play around with David N's post about using Environment and "Mapped Instrument" to reassign midi triggers (since the dm10 crash2 does not trigger a sound on it's own that works great to reassign it). I'm trying to figure out if there's something in that solution that applies to this problem.

 

I unplugged my dm10 kit and plugged my midi keyboard back in via USB and started banging on the hi hat key and using the mod wheel to open and close the hi hat.. it of course works perfectly. I'm looking in the Event window and the keyboard mod wheel shows up as this:

 

Position: 141 218 (these numbers changed when moving the wheel)

Status: Control

Channel: 1

Number: 1

Velocity: 59 (this number changed to when moving the wheel)

Length/Info: Modulation

 

It seems there must be someway to tell logic to look at the the dm10 hi-hat pedal the same way it's looking at the mod wheel on my keyboard, no? Nothing shows up as number "1" (everything is a note there) in the mapping on "Mapped Instrument" in the Environment but I know the Environment is pretty powerful (and I have no understanding of it at all!). Isn't there someway to do this??

 

Anyone??

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Update:

 

I've verified that the dm10 module is sending cc#4 midi out to logic. There's a trigger menu where you can tell the dm10 to not send cc#4 or to send it and it's definitely set to send it out... Still, no one has an idea about this??? getting discouraged. Another weekend slipping away to tech issues instead of playing music :(

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Hi

 

Update:

 

I've verified that the dm10 module is sending cc#4 midi out to logic. There's a trigger menu where you can tell the dm10 to not send cc#4 or to send it and it's definitely set to send it out... Still, no one has an idea about this??? getting discouraged. Another weekend slipping away to tech issues instead of playing music :(

 

 

The Drum Kit Designer patches are set up to use MIDI CC1 (Modulation) for the HiHat control. If you cannot change the DM10 to transmit CC1 instead of CC4, you will need to manually change things within LPX.

 

There are a number of ways you could do this:

Add a real-time transformer (convert CC4 to CC1) in the Clicks and Ports layer of the Environment

 

19178568_CC4toCC1.jpg.df53246baee058dd1db8d39910d44525.jpg

 

Or you could switch the Drum Des plugin to the EXS24 and alter the Modulation Matrix parameters

1707279315_EXSModWhl.jpg.80312b2caf40d090b5f5bca26c2348cb.jpg

 

Probably some other ways too

 

CCT

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Oh man..Great! CCT-Thanks for making that clear. I really appreciate it as I'm just beginning to wrap my mind around the Environment, mapping and midi in general -beyond what I've learned from basic editing in the piano roll. I'm going to set that up tonight and try it out!

 

Additional observation:

I read that BFD2 has a set up that allows you to set the blending of the hi-hat sounds from closed to open. I would assume you can do that in the Environment yes? I did see a post somewhere that someone had also set that up with the EXS24.

 

Are you or anyone willing to take the time to explain it to me or at least point me to a good resource that explains how to dive into the Environment or EXS24 to accomplish this? Is it really necessary? I'm not a drummer's drummer by any means so I don't even know if that is excessive tweaking. Thoughts?

 

I've read through the Logic manuals that detail both of these elements but even that is still going mostly over my head at this point. I really just wanted to get my edrums to work correctly with DMK in Logic. I thought that would just take a couple hours hahah...down a rabbit hole. That to say, I'm not really wanting to learn how to master Environment or EXS24 right now... But I will if I have to...Just trying to figure out the most efficient means to get done what I need for right now to facilitate recording presently.

 

From what I understand, the dm10 hi-hat is a one zone trigger.. not sure if I have the jargon right or if that relates to the mixing of tones through the range of the pedal, but thought it might be pertinent info. Much thanks again for any coming replies.

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Hi all, thanks for the continued input.

 

UPDATE:

::sigh:: Welp, I set up my dm10 with a transformer module in the clicks and ports as outlined by CCT Music.

 

RESULT:

1) Pressing the HHpedal down to the floor triggered the correct sound (clipped or choked sound as if you were stomping the pedal of a real kit. (or maybe it was triggering the closed sound as struck by a stick? I don't know but the sound was a closed one)

 

2) HiHat pedal moving through it's range seemed to take control of the volume of the open HH sound. There was no change in the type of sound itself, which was the open HH sound all the way through the pedal movement, even at the bottom where it should for sure trigger the HH closed sound when struck with a stick.

 

3) Striking the HiHat only produced the open HH sound no matter where my foot had the pedal. I could not trigger the closed HH sound in any way.

 

I then tried to set it up with the ESX24 again as CCT Music outlined

 

RESULT:

::sigh mixed in with approaching despair::

 

1) The HiHat only produced the HiHat closed sound (that you would get when striking a closed HiHat). That was it...No matter where or what the pedal was doing, I only got that sound with a stick strike.

 

Am I just stupid? Am I totally missing steps here or something?? I mean...this should work..right?

 

Nola, as for the VDrum setting.. it did not make any difference on the Alesis DM10. It's the first thing I tried, figuring it was a no-brainer..but alas..if it's a three way battle between the brains of the dm10, LPX and me...hehehe...looks like a double-team on me :(

 

Lasteno, did you have any kind of result?

 

What else could be going on? I find it hard to believe that this wouldn't be solve-able somehow. Any more thoughts?

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Hi

 

I have (finally ) had a chance to have another look at this:

 

GM mapping within Drum designer has different notes for open/close hats

GM with CC1 controlling the Hats works CC1 value 0+ closed to val 127=fully open

V Drum does indeed map CC4 to the Hats, but inversely: CC4 value 0 -Open, val 127= closed.

 

When you switch to the EXS24 to examine the mapping no difference shows up there, so it must be builtin to Drum Designer.

 

Sounds to me like the Hat pedal is not transmitting the full range of values. It would be worth checking either in the MIDI activity monitor, or by recording the MIDI data and having a look in the Event List.

 

 

CCT

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Ok:

 

in ESX24 I recorded the drum pedal. I switched the CC1 to CC4 as before. I have the SoCal Kit loaded. What I get is a single midi event that registers for the actual pressing of the pedal. Once the pedal is down, the midi event does not record the duration like when you hold down the key on a keyboard. It's just a little blip for the action even if I keep the pedal down.

 

Pedal down is recording all the way up to 127

 

There's no event for the pedal in the up position so I assume it goes to "0" but doesn't create an event.

 

Does this info spark anything?

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Hi CCT, continued thanks for your interest in solving this. So, I'm posting 5 images.

 

1) keyboard/mod wheel: DMK set to "GM + Mod Wheel" Works as expected

 

2) DM10: DMK set to "GM + Mod Wheel" pedal doesn't record CC values

 

3) DM10: DMK set to "V Drums" - pedal doesn't record CC values

 

4) DM10: DMK set to "V Drums" Transform set in Envronment - pedal doesn't record CC values

 

5) DM10: EXS23 set to "SoCal Kit" Src set from CC1 - CC4 - pedal doesn't record CC values (although I could see the slider moving on the EXS24 interface when I pressed the pedal..so it sees something eh?

 

Thoughts?

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2) DM10: DMK set to "GM + Mod Wheel" pedal doesn't record CC values

002.thumb.jpg.915c98a4e5d846cf40f4a01f47b33b99.jpg

 

 

 

3) DM10: DMK set to "V Drums" - pedal doesn't record CC values

003.thumb.jpg.8e4f432ba89d203abb29bc5ac535d822.jpg

 

 

4) DM10: DMK set to "V Drums" Transform set in Envronment - pedal doesn't record CC values

004.thumb.jpg.40b14aa665561ff3484978bb2b16f1c9.jpg

 

 

5) DM10: EXS23 set to "SoCal Kit" Src set from CC1 - CC4 - pedal doesn't record CC values (although I could see the slider moving on the EXS24 interface when I pressed the pedal..so it sees something eh?

005.thumb.jpg.df8a1f5b7ad02b4e03ffdbbac7487d22.jpg

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Ok, I can do that when I get home tonight.

 

As I understand it, I would:

-Create a new, empty project

-Add an instrument (midi) track (which will default to some kind of synth if I remember correctly)

-Hit record and work the pedal for a few bars.

 

Correct?

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I do see one problem (although I'm still baffled as to why your pedal is not outputting CC messages). Your pedal is outputting F#0 as the foot splash note. F#0 is an unused note in GM standard. G0 is the note in GM standard and Extended for the hi hat foot splash. I'd definitely try mapping all incoming F#0's to G0 to start. The other note in your picture, G#1, is Hi-Hat foot in GM and GM extended, so you seem to be good there.

 

That still doesn't explain why you're not getting CC messages, so let's keep working on that.

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Hey CCT; and anyone else following this...

 

I dug up this post today:

 

http://audio.tutsplus.com/tutorials/production/convert-your-modulation-wheel-to-any-controller-number-in-logic-pro/

 

It's very similar to the Environment/Transform method you had posted at the beginning of this thread. However it is more involved and also, they have it placing the Transform module at near the end of the chain as opposed to the beginning as you has suggested. It gets into creating a fader and using CC11 and also talks about how an expression pedal can be used to control it. I am assuming that my dm10 hi hat pedal is nothing more than an expression pedal? Anyways, I'm posting it so you -or anyone, can take a look and see if it applies at all to this solve. thx

 

Shawn

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Nola, as for the VDrum setting.. it did not make any difference on the Alesis DM10. It's the first thing I tried, figuring it was a no-brainer..but alas..if it's a three way battle between the brains of the dm10, LPX and me...hehehe...looks like a double-team on me :(

 

 

Just to make sure before we go any further, you DO have the setting in DKD set to Vdrums in the dropdown menu right? I can't tell from what you say above whether you decided to go back to GM/GM extended after initially trying the Vdrums setting.

 

To figure this out, that setting should absolutely be on Vdrums and stay there...

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Hey CCT; and anyone else following this...

 

I dug up this post today:

 

http://audio.tutsplus.com/tutorials/production/convert-your-modulation-wheel-to-any-controller-number-in-logic-pro/

 

It's very similar to the Environment/Transform method you had posted at the beginning of this thread. However it is more involved and also, they have it placing the Transform module at near the end of the chain as opposed to the beginning as you has suggested. It gets into creating a fader and using CC11 and also talks about how an expression pedal can be used to control it. I am assuming that my dm10 hi hat pedal is nothing more than an expression pedal? Anyways, I'm posting it so you -or anyone, can take a look and see if it applies at all to this solve. thx

 

Shawn

 

This isn't going to help you, at least not yet. We have to figure out why Logic isn't reading CC messages at all from your HH pedal first.

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Yes, I have (had) it set to Vdrums. If you look back to page1, I posted 5 screen shots to CCT with some different configurations. #3 is the Vdrum setting and it's also the only one that you'll see the F#0 note in out of the 5 set ups.

 

Meanwhile, I'm about to go waterboard myself in the shower. Last night my Rack 002 stopped "streaming" (a little output note on the control panel says it's connected but "Not Streaming" and LPX was crashing on start up. I had to set it to internal audio just to get LPX to launch.. Don't know what's up with the Rack002 but I hope it's not serious..It's my only recording input. See ya'll in another thread if I cant' figure it out... But back to to this.

 

I'm attaching a scrshot of the F#0 remapped to the G0. Something called sticks is still mapped to G0 as well so... I don't know.. I've really lost my love for recording right now. So frustrated at the problem and my lack of understanding and experience.

 

Anyways. The set up is DKD set to Vdrums with the F#0 remapped to G0. I got a closed foot sound on the pedal press and a closed hat sound from a strike with the stick. Nothing in between nor an open hat sound anywhere.

 

So, probably for the better, I am heading out camping this morning and won't be anywhere near anything computerized until Monday evening. I'm sure that will do my soul some good (well, I KNOW it will) but my bulldog mentality really wanted this solved so I'm not staring at the dirt brooding over problem solving instead of noticing hawks and wildflowers and schtuff. I hope the curiosity and challenge for you guys who understand this better is enough to continue pulling you forward into solving this.. If not, well, I understand. It's already been a long thread without progress and that can't be fun.

 

From what I read, something like BFD2 will handle the hi-hat correctly. Can anyone confirm that with the dm10? dmdrummer.com has a map for the dm10 for BFD2 but I haven't seen a confirm that everything works with the dm10 and the hat with that map. I'd have to drop $ for BFD2. Then LEARN how to use it and THEN load the map. I'm just not up to it right now after all this with DKD. I saw that BFD2 itself says it's compatible with dm5 and another Alesis kit..so...SEEMS like it would.

 

It's not that I can't cough up another $200 bucks for BFD2. I mean, I CAN. It hurts a little bit but it's not out of reach or anything. What bugs me the most is that DKD seems to have great sounds. I'm just doing singer/songwriter and a little bit of 5-6 piece band alt rock type stuff - It's not like I'm producing somebody's A-list project, but I do have a specific idea for beats and fills that "Kyle" or whomever just isn't going to get. Besides, I LIKE playing drums along to the tracks, ya know? Anyways, Logic DKD is a great solution for me and I the idea of spending money on something that is redundant to what I already have, particularly when it's over this one small tiny little compartmentalized issue, just annoys the heck outta me. IT'S NOT THE WAY THE UNIVERSE IS DESIGNED, dammit.

 

END RANT.

 

I'm going to hang out with with the trees. I'll take a few deep breaths of fresh air for us all. Thanks for the input thus far, I do appreciate the help that everyone is willing to offer.

 

1938987534_ScreenShot2013-08-30at8_33_28AM.thumb.png.58604b84b1a8b6e2e5f7253e299d4bce.png

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That's fine with the Sticks and Scrapull items there - just remember to only use that mapping for the DKD plugin, no other instruments (else you'll get a G while playing a F# on a piano or a synth).

 

I understand your frustration. The difference between DKD and pretty much EVERY other drum sample plugin out there is that all the other ones have key maps for different edrum kits. Hopefully after Logic X has been out for a bit longer, such maps will start to pop up from users and/or edrum manufacturers.

 

Enjoy your trip and hopefully we can iron this out when you get back. At this point, to me there is no other explanation for your HH pedal not sending CC messages than the pedal itself is broken. But that can't be, as it works fine with your DM10 module.

 

Hey here's an idea if you haven't left yet, or for when you get back. Download the free BFD2 demo and install that. Try it in Logic - BFD has it's own MIDI monitor within the plugin that will tell you if it's seeing CC messages from your DM10.

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Hi again Shawn, I hope you're enjoying your nature time. So I decided to connect my V-Drums to Logic and mess around to see how mine plays with it. I have a Roland TD-3. With DKD set to "Vdrums" mapping, everything works exactly as it should with my hi-hat pedal and trigger. So the problem you're having appears NOT to have to do with Logic. So the mystery continues...

 

So, something you mentioned in your last post jumped out at me... in your very first post you mention the DM10 is connected via USB. Is it connected directly to your Mac, or is it connected to something else, such at you Digi002? Connect it to a USB port directly on your Mac before trying anything else...

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Happy post holiday.

 

My attitude is refreshed thanks to cool mountain breezes, outstanding vistas and nothing but the sound of the wind in the pines.

 

Nola, thanks for your recent posts - not using the mapping on other instruments-noted!

My USB is directly conected from the dm10 to the computer's USB so no complications there.

 

I get what your saying about DKD being new to the scene. Yah... sooo, the solve for this issue is likely running out of steam at this juncture I suppose. I am going to download the BFD2 demo tonight, grab the dm10 map from dmdrummer.com figure out how to load it in and see what happens. That gives us a whole 12 hours in the meantime to solve this!!! Awesome!!! (hehe.. j/k)

 

But in the spirit of exploring all possible solutions - and perhaps because BFD2 may not be so easy either...I did want to point out one thing that I don't know if you saw on my earlier posts (or anyone else reading this) to see if it sparks anymore possibilities: If you go back to this post where I put up the 5 images:

 

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=99109&hilit=dm10#p518671

 

image #5, where I have it set up with the EXS24, did respond to my up and down pedal movement on pot "D" of "ENV 2" section of the interface (I boxed it in red on the posted image). So, the pedal movement was being seen by EXS24 even though it was not triggering anything related to the hihat. I don't know why it was that pot that was seeing it. Thoughts? Deduction tells me that there would be a way to route that pot channel to trigger the correct channel for the hihat pedal CC action. Am I off on that idea?

 

Just refilled my coffee and thought, Hmmm...maybe I just dump my dm10 and pick up the TD-3?

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Hi welcome back from nature.

 

I did see all your images in your earlier post and I did see how you highlighted the moving slider on EXS24. I wish I could say that helps me think of what's going on, but after playing all weekend with my TD3 into DKD and having no issue seeing the CC messages show in all the monitors, I'm still just as baffled.

 

If you're thinking of switching to a Roland unit, the TD-3 can definitely be had for cheap on Ebay. But just know it's a very limited unit in its tweakability. It's just fine for me b/c I'm not much of a drummer and require only very simple type beats. To get the cheapest Roland unit with the most functionality you'd want a TD-9 which can get up to 500 bucks.

 

But before you go dropping more cash, let's just try a few more things. My next question is whether CC messages are truly getting to your Mac. So can you download this very small, free app, called MIDI Monitor, open it up, pump you HH pedal a few times, and see if it displays CC messages?

 

http://www.snoize.com/MIDIMonitor/

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Hi Nola,

 

Sorry for my extended absence. Work can sometimes take over, plus I was out of town again over the last weeekend unexpectedly. Please don't take my absence as lost interest. I'm back on track with hopefully solving this and soon (fingers crossed)

 

Update:

 

1) I downloaded the BFD2 demo and a DM10 map someone made over at dmdrummer.com and the hi-hat worked fine once I figured out how to load the map. The only problem is that one of my symbols triggers a "groove assignment' and sequence starts playing instead of a cymbal sound. I started digging around the manual and the forums.. felt like I was entering rabbit hole hell and also off on a tangent.

 

So, at least I know BFD2 is a solution but I feel daunted again by the time required to just get functional on a new piece of software. It's just not where I want to put my energy, ya know? I'm putting it aside and will pick it up again if only if I HAVE to, and you'll probably see me on some other forum about whining about it. ;)

 

2) I did as you suggested and dowloaded the snoize/midi monitor. The pedal is recognized it would seem. I posted the screen grab.

 

Sooooo...what's next?? Thanks.

 

1172625178_ScreenShot2013-09-10at10_21_10PM.thumb.png.e59243aaf52be1fa3c8582936d80404d.png

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