applying dynamics from an audio track to a midi instrument

[cybercampbell]

Hi all

 

I hoping someone here can help me.

 

I have an audio recording of a Cello (about 20min long) and this is doubled by a VSL midi instrument....the problem I have is..I need the sample cello to match the dynamics/levels of the real recoding....it has all the natural expression I want and I don't really want to automate all the expression on the VSL cello samples...this would take too long...so...to the point...

 

is there a way to get the dynamics/levels of the real Cello and apply them to the VSL sample cello?

 

I tried using a compressor and side chaining it to the real cello but could get it to sound very natural.

 

Any ideas?

 

Cheers

C

[gsilbers]

thats basically why (as well as with tone ) producers hire real musicians still.

 

sorry but you will have manually not only automate velocity layer but also atack, release, and change samples to fit the cellos hundreds of intricate details.

 

unless its pad stuff so u can get away with only changing the atack and realse as well as automate the velocity.,

 

aybe assign midi controllerds.

[cybercampbell]

Thanks for your reply

 

It is to be added to the existing cello (behind) so i'm not too worried about the articulations. if I could macth the levels then I think i'd be fine...I did a little test automating a few bars and it did the job I need....a bit crude i know but there is no budget to record a real section....The recording I have is a solo cello...I just need to thinken it a little.

 

Cheers

C

[i]

You could run the cello track through Sample Editors Audio to Score function and see what kind of velocity values it spits out.

 

i

[cybercampbell]

Ok..Great idea!!

 

i'm trying this but its a bit crappy with legato instruments...but I can sort that out.

 

now how do I convert that velocity info to expression to use with my VSL inst

 

Thanks C

Edited June 16, 2007 by cybercampbell

[cybercampbell]

OK...I worked out how to convert the velocities to volume/expression or modweel...but....it's very up and down(always going down to 0)...is there a function to smooth the automation data?

 

Cheers

C

[cybercampbell]

or remove all the controler info that is 0?

[Justin-Ch]

I know you are asking about dynamics, but would the magical Match EQ be any help here?

[cybercampbell]

I did explore that option...i couldn't find away...it seems to match only the eq and leaves all dynamics unaltered....if you know how this could help the please let me know.

 

Cheers

C

[fader8]

You need an amplitude envelope generator that tracks an input signal.

 

I believe, although I haven't played with it, that the exs24 has a Relative Volume as a control destination. Set the sidechain as your control source. Like I said, I haven't used this so you'll have to experiment.

[Beer Moth]

OK...I worked out how to convert the velocities to volume/expression or modweel...but....it's very up and down(always going down to 0)...is there a function to smooth the automation data?

 

Cheers

C

 

Transform window> set the velocity limit(s)

[cybercampbell]

I believe, although I haven't played with it, that the exs24 has a Relative Volume as a control destination. Set the sidechain as your control source. Like I said, I haven't used this so you'll have to experiment.

 

This works but the output signal is very very low...have I set everything correctly?

 

dest: volume (relative vol didn't work)

via:

src: sidechain

 

Any ideas?

 

Cheers

C

[fader8]

This works but the output signal is very very low...have I set everything correctly?

 

dest: volume (relative vol didn't work)

 

OK, I'm at my workstation now. Send your reference track to a dedicated bus, full tilt. Set the exs sidechain to that bus. Set Dest to Relative Volume, not auto adjust. Now the slider to the right of the control src/dest will scale the signal up to +48dB.

 

Add more gain with the main exs volume and tweak the Level/via Vel controls on the upper right to taste. If you still need more gain, then crank up the bus by adding gainer plugs, etc. It's floating point so you don't have to worry about clipping and it's just the reference signal.

 

Works fine here. Let me know how you make out.

[cybercampbell]

Ok...that seems to be working...but its a bit pumpy and drops some notes, doesn't sound very smooth at all....is there a way now to get that controler data from the sidechain into an automation track through that process or am i stuff within esx24?

 

Thanks

C

[fader8]

Ok...that seems to be working...but its a bit pumpy and drops some notes, doesn't sound very smooth at all....is there a way now to get that controler data from the sidechain into an automation track through that process . . .

 

Not with Logic. That kind of sound design is out of Logic's league. I've done this with Kyma but that's probably not an option for you. Maybe Max/MSP could do it but I'd have to check.

 

Did you try tweaking the Level via Vel control next to the main volume? Also, try setting the via control to the sidechain as well and then adjust the min scaling slider that appears when you instantiate a via. Just more ways to tweak the effect of the sidechain.

 

Also, you could try a little compressor on the reference bus to "precondition" the reference audio, or even eq it to enhance what gets tracked.

 

I'm running out of ideas!

[cybercampbell]

I'll try those...thanks for your help.

 

Cheers

C

[cybercampbell]

Ahhhh!!!

 

this is still not right....I need to find another way.

 

fader8's ideas worked but not so well with my trigger sound....I tested it on other sounds and its much better....anyway...thanks for you help fader8.

 

but has anyone got any other ideas? ....you'd think the gain plugin with a sidechain function whould exist...or is it just me that thinks that?

 

Cheers

C

[fader8]

Hey, your welcome. I like the more obscure stuff, well at least on weekends when I have a little time.

 

....you'd think the gain plugin with a sidechain function whould exist...or is it just me that thinks that?

 

If that's all it was then it wouldn't work any better than the EXS solution. It needs more parameters. Ideally I think a sidechain input on the Enveloper plug-in would be the ticket. As you've experienced, you need more than just basic control of the sidechain dynamics for it to be very effective. Something like Kontakts Envelope Follower which gives control over its attack, decay and transient response time. Unfortunately that one doesn't work "inter-instrument" or it would probably be perfect for you.

 

I'd love to see something in Logic but I have other tools that do that so I can wait. Maybe some solution will turn up though!

[cybercampbell]

And, the side chain input into the ES2 turns the audio into a control envelope by way of an envelope follower. That new envelope can be patched in as a source in the the control matrix to be sent to lots of destinations do all kinds of cool stuff!

 

Is this what I'm looking for?..can anyone explain this in more detail.

 

Cheers

C

[fader8]

And, the side chain input into the ES2 turns the audio into a control envelope by way of an envelope follower. That new envelope can be patched in as a source in the the control matrix to be sent to lots of destinations do all kinds of cool stuff!

 

Is this what I'm looking for?..can anyone explain this in more detail.

 

Steve's referring to the control matrix within the ES2 itself. So, it would work fine if you wanted an ES2 synth sound to follow your cello. Something tells me that's not what you want!

 

 

Do you have Kontakt2? I realized this could be done by loading your track as a sample in Group 1 of an instrument, then having your sampled cello in Group 2. Then you could use the envelope follower which has adjustable parameters.

 

Back to the EXS solution, you could try using the Enveloper plug on the reference bus to tame the signal a bit more before it goes to the sidechain. Just a thought.

[cybercampbell]

I do have Kontakt2.....This could be good...but i'm not to advanced with it..is it easy to do (before I get myself lost for days trying)?

 

any tips? I'll look at it now.

 

Cheers again

C

[scribe]

I haven't tried this but could audio-to-score be helpful? (available in sample editor). Using this to make a copy of the audio region as a midi region (however badly it comes out) would at least give you midi velocities. I don't know if you could then copy the velocity values (via event list?) to your other midi region.

 

Just a thought.

[fader8]

..is it easy to do (before I get myself lost for days trying)?

 

he he, it could be. I'm trying it but I'm not having any luck. I posted something on the NI forum so we'll see if I get an intelligent response.

[cybercampbell]

I haven't tried this but could audio-to-score be helpful? (available in sample editor). Using this to make a copy of the audio region as a midi region (however badly it comes out) would at least give you midi velocities. I don't know if you could then copy the velocity values (via event list?) to your other midi region.

 

Just a thought.

 

I did try this...it was suggested earlier. The velocities are translated pretty good but when I translate them to expression (using the transform tool) there are so many the my machine cant handle it....if I ajust the settings to have less velocities (resulting in less controller data) I can't get the quality of expression I need....basicly...I couldn't get it to work well enough...although it did work.

 

btw: the audio to score feature is not so hot with legato instrauments ie. Cello.

 

 

 

Thanks

C