levels of final mix with level meter on output

[benw]

i always have a level meter on my output while i'm mixing, normally set on showing peak and RMS... ive read about keeping mixes below -3, but is that peak or RMS? anyone got any general suggestions for keeping a mix healthy volume wise?

 

cheers,

ben

[David Nahmani]

i always have a level meter on my output while i'm mixing, normally set on showing peak and RMS... ive read about keeping mixes below -3, but is that peak or RMS? anyone got any general suggestions for keeping a mix healthy volume wise?

 

cheers,

ben

 

That's peak. In digital, you talk peak unless otherwise specified.

 

As for which level your master should show, it depends: are you going to master it? Then as your mastering engineer, or keep it below -3dBFS.

 

Is that the final master? In that case keep it below 0dBFS, or -0.1dBFS, or up to -3dBFS, depending on how loud you want it, and worried you are about the mix distorting upon playback. I wouldn't consider -3dBFS for modern music if you want to be able to compete with commercial recordings.

[benw]

riight. its not going to be mastered externally so my plan is to get it sound as good as i can mix wise, then try some limiting/compression master wise and see if it helps make it any more cohesive, if not then won't bother with mastering as such, its just a rough demo. ill try to keep the loudest parts at 0, and quietest bits around -2. cheers.

[breeze]

Is that the final master? In that case keep it below 0dBFS, or -0.1dBFS, or up to -3dBFS, depending on how loud you want it, and worried you are about the mix distorting upon playback. I wouldn't consider -3dBFS for modern music if you want to be able to compete with commercial recordings.

 

Just to clarify, if those are peak levels, then I think they have no direct relationship to the "loudness" of a mix. As a mastering engineer, I can make a mix hit peaks at -3dBfs yet make it much louder than the same mix hitting peaks @ -0.3dBfs. Depends on what I do with a limiter. The RMS level is the issue in the percieved loudness of the mix, so it's important to look at both in Logic's meters (nice that Logic offers this!!).

 

If you aren't going to have the mix mastered professionally, then I'd mix it without a 2mix limiter and aim for between -6 and -3dBfs, getting the mix sounding as good as you can, the way you want it. That's *plenty* of level, and gives you or someone else plenty of headroom for mastering. Then I'd insert the AdLimiter, set the output ceiling to -0.5dBfs, and then change the gain until the output level starts to hit -0.5dBfs as well. From there, you can crank it a little harder if you want it "louder".

 

The good thing about this approach is that later on, if you *do* want it mastered properly, you just bypass the Adlimiter and you've got your mix, the way you wanted it, before you made it "louder". So you could bounce that, with it's nice headroom, and let the mastering engineer have at it.

[David Nahmani]

Just to clarify, if those are peak levels, then I think they have no direct relationship to the "loudness" of a mix.

If it's the same mix, they do. Take a mix that peaks at -3dBFS, and add 3dB of gain to your mix, it will now peak at 0dBFS and sound 3dB louder.

 

As a mastering engineer, I can make a mix hit peaks at -3dBfs yet make it much louder than the same mix hitting peaks @ -0.3dBfs. Depends on what I do with a limiter.

If you use a limiter with different settings on both mixes, then those are not the same mix anymore. They will sound different (the one peaking at -3dBFS will be more compressed).

[breeze]

Just to clarify, if those are peak levels, then I think they have no direct relationship to the "loudness" of a mix.

If it's the same mix, they do. Take a mix that peaks at -3dBFS, and add 3dB of gain to your mix, it will now peak at 0dBFS and sound 3dB louder.

 

Well, of course - it's obvous that changing the gain of a signal changes its percieved loudness at the same monitoring level. Wasn't my point. But I thought your comment referred to a mastered mix. In the mastering community, the idea of the "loudness" of a mix is an issue with the RMS level of the mix, not it's peaks. I was just trying to point that out. Mastering engineers don't manipulate the "loudness" of a mix by changing the mix gain (I thought your post suggested otherwise - perhaps I misunderstood), they do it by manipulating the relationship between the peak and RMS levels. A typical pop mastering gig will peak within 0.5dB of full scale, with the mix "loudness" is controlled by raising the RMS level against that peak. Just wanted to point that out.

 

As a mastering engineer, I can make a mix hit peaks at -3dBfs yet make it much louder than the same mix hitting peaks @ -0.3dBfs. Depends on what I do with a limiter.

If you use a limiter with different settings on both mixes, then those are not the same mix anymore. They will sound different (the one peaking at -3dBFS will be more compressed).

 

Clearly, I meant that they were the same mix before applying limiting. The statement relates to the same issue - I was pointing out the difference between peak and RMS level. That was the point of the original post, and the thrust of my example of two treatments applied to the same mix.