Long Shot-decorator style Leslies

[CplusE]

I want to know if anyone know a program or reverb tool or plug-in . That can recreat this sound. I was listen to some old song and they had a sound with a organ. And my friend said it had a decorator style Leslies with it. If anyone can help me out thanks.

 

this is what they look like.

http://www.captain-foldback.com/Leslie_sub/decorat.htm

[fader8]

There's a free AU one at:

 

http://www.mda-vst.com/

 

Click on the AU & VST Effects link.

 

Effectively the Leslie cabinet produced a combination vibrato and tremolo simultaneously. While it's possible to tweak a synth to do this with pitch and amplitude slightly modulated by a common LFO, you'd be hard pressed to get their unique relationship as well as the tubes and wood that went into that sound.

[bryla]

hmm... I haven't heard vibrato in a Leslie :s

I would say that it is the distortion, colouring and pseudo-stereo tremolo that makes them unique

I understand your thought about vibrato theoretically, but it is not what is perceived.

And not all great leslies even have tubes, but are still amazing!

But why go for a sound of these 'decorator leslies'? You should try to get the opportunity to listen to the classics like 122, 142, 147 and 760.

 

Sorry to be slightly OT, but when it comes to theese things I can be a little picky

[ski]

hmm... I haven't heard vibrato in a Leslie :s

I would say that it is the distortion, colouring and pseudo-stereo tremolo that makes them unique

I understand your thought about vibrato theoretically, but it is not what is perceived.

And not all great leslies even have tubes, but are still amazing!

But why go for a sound of these 'decorator leslies'? You should try to get the opportunity to listen to the classics like 122, 142, 147 and 760.

 

Sorry to be slightly OT, but when it comes to theese things I can be a little picky

 

From one picky guy to another the spinning rotors create a localized doppler effect which, particularly at the fast speed, be characterized as vibrato, particularly in synth parlance.

 

I know that you know that I know that Hammond "vibrato" is a different effect from what fader8 was attributing to vibrato. But as he was saying regarding synthesizing a simulation of a Leslie effect, imparting sine or triangle LFO pitch modulation to the oscillator(s) -- an effect generically referred to as vibrato -- helps make the simulation more convincing than not.

 

But the perceived pitch change (doppler effect "intensity") increases at the fast speed, and isn't really noticeable at the slow speed (which creates more of a "chorale" effect). So the approach to effectively simulating this on synth requires having your slow speed LFO-->Oscillator pitch depth be somewhat less than when you're simulating the faster speed.

 

So yes, there's distortion, tremolo, and doppler effect ("vibrato") in a real Leslie, all of which all combine to create the sound.

 

And I'm sure that's just the information that the OP was look for too, LOL!

 

Best,

 

-=sKi=-

[i]

Hi.

 

Have you tried Logic's own rotary speaker effect. I think it can be found under Modulation effects.

 

i

[CplusE]

Thank you for opening my eye's to see that it is possible to bring this sound alive in logic. All of you are amazeing. Some of the things that where said where kinda over my head. But I did my research and it seems it comming together. Where i hear the sound was from listening to Booker T & The MG's... I told myself I had to have that sound. Would love the riffs but I stick with my novice skills I have with keyboard.

 

Fadrer8 thank you for the AU, if kinda does give me that sound. But I guess i have to learn the techniques of bringing this sound back to life. Im used EVB3, and others sound came explodeing out.

 

SKI, i still am trying to understand your post. It's not becuase it was wrong,it just because I'm still learning the ropes and understand the doppler effect intensity. I know soon i will get it and come back to it and it will make more since. I know other are like, it makes perfect since. But for I it's taking a little more time. But what a statement "I know that you know that I know that Hammond "vibrato" is a different effect from what fader8 was attributing to vibrato."

 

Also Bryla, Can you tell the name of these classics so i can look them up.

122, 142, 147 and 760.

 

I guess it will take practice too, also i might not get the sound perfect, but just getting close or making new one's is what i want to makw new music. The creative aspect.

[ski]

SKI, i still am trying to understand your post. It's not becuase it was wrong,it just because I'm still learning the ropes and understand the doppler effect intensity. I know soon i will get it and come back to it and it will make more since. I know other are like, it makes perfect since. But for I it's taking a little more time. But what a statement "I know that you know that I know that Hammond "vibrato" is a different effect from what fader8 was attributing to vibrato."

 

C+E,

 

Don't worry about those details. They were mainly a response to what Bryla and Fader 8 said.

 

Just briefly, the doppler effect is a change in perceived pitch when a distant sound source moves closer to you (and then away from you) at a relatively high rate of speed.

 

Think of a police car siren. If it's far away it sounds like it has a certain pitch (or pitch pattern). If the car then passes by you continues speeding, moving away from you, the pitch will seem to drop.

 

What's actually happening is that the pitch you hear as it approaches you is higher than normal (soundwaves are compressed). As the car moves away from you, the pitch drops (soundwaves are expanded). But to the policeman in the car, the siren always sounds the same.

 

You can demonstrate this yourself right in your own home! If you have any kind of device that puts out a steady tone (like a portable phone, with speaker phone switched on), listen to the basic tone. Then, holding it firmly, spin your arm around your head (or at your side). You'll hear the doppler effect!

[ski]

P.S. the stuff I wrote about is not necessary to know if what you're really trying to achieve is a Leslie sound. It might be interesting to understand how it works, but not at all necessary to achieve that sound.

[fader8]

the spinning rotors create a localized doppler effect which, particularly at the fast speed, be characterized as vibrato, particularly in synth parlance.

 

Thank you ski!

 

Yup. But what makes it all the more interesting is that the high frequency transducer has two opposing horns. Meaning that there's a doppler shift up happening simultaneously with a doppler shift down. So, using the LFO analogy, you'd need two LFO's with opposing polarity controlling two VCO's independently, but in sync.

 

For the Low frequency, I'd think that any doppler would be minimal, if at all. More of an amplitude change coupled with a frequency response change. So, a third oscillator, source one of the LFO's above and lock it to a VCHPF and a VCA independent from the signal chain above. Hmm . . I feel a cool patch coming on. Zebra2 maybe . . .

[ski]

the spinning rotors create a localized doppler effect which, particularly at the fast speed, be characterized as vibrato, particularly in synth parlance.

 

Thank you ski!

 

Yup. But what makes it all the more interesting is that the high frequency transducer has two opposing horns. Meaning that there's a doppler shift up happening simultaneously with a doppler shift down. So, using the LFO analogy, you'd need two LFO's with opposing polarity controlling two VCO's independently, but in sync.

 

For the Low frequency, I'd think that any doppler would be minimal, if at all. More of an amplitude change coupled with a frequency response change. So, a third oscillator, source one of the LFO's above and lock it to a VCHPF and a VCA independent from the signal chain above. Hmm . . I feel a cool patch coming on. Zebra2 maybe . . .

 

It's my understanding (which may not be 100% correct -- in fact, Bryla would probably know better) that the double treble horn design isn't actually a double horn! It only looks that way. There's only one actual "speaking" horn while the other one is a "dummy horn" (counterweight).

 

If this is correct then there would only be two doppler patterns to program.

 

OK, let's get really REALLY picky... :D

 

While it's possible to create Leslie-like effects on a synth, the effect is probably best achieved with an outboard effect. This is due to several factors:

 

Typically, synth simulations of a typical B3 sound start with oscillators tuned to certain intervals, like root + fifth, etc. (possibly in combination a resonant LP filter to create a third "drawbar" note). These oscillators shouldn't be detuned so that they maintain a static tone, just like an organ without a Leslie or any added vibrato or chorusing. (Having said that, detuning the oscillators slightly will lend a certain amount of chorusing effect to the sound). But sticking with the static drawbar sound for a minute, that essentiallly homophonic sound then gets run into the Leslie which breaks the sound into bass and treble components, each of which is subject to a different doppler "pattern" (and it's essentially a random pattern).

 

So if you were to modulate, say, the lower-pitched oscillator to try to simulate the less doppler-y bottom speaker, and modulate the higher-pitched oscillators at a faster rate to simulate the more doppler-y treble speakers, I think you'd break apart the integrity of that steady-state, initial drawbar simulation created by the oscillators.

 

This is why, whenever I've made synth organ patches that I concentrate on the most distinguishable component of the Leslie sound -- that of the treble rotor, and I kinda don't worry about the lower rotor sound so much.

 

Different synths have different capabilities, as I know you know, so it's likely that some would be better choices than others for trying to simulate all the nuances of a real Leslie'd organ. But still, it will usually sound better if you have an actual Leslie effect on the output of a simple oscillator/filter-based drawbar simulation. That way the effect works on that steady-state tone.

 

Did I really write all that? Whew!

[fader8]

It's my understanding (which may not be 100% correct -- in fact, Bryla would probably know better) that the double treble horn design isn't actually a double horn! It only looks that way. There's only one actual "speaking" horn while the other one is a "dummy horn" (counterweight).

 

Ah, fascinating. Maybe Bryla will fess up. That does make more sense though when I think about that sound.

 

So if you were to modulate, say, the lower-pitched oscillator to try to simulate the less doppler-y bottom speaker, and modulate the higher-pitched oscillators at a faster rate to simulate the more doppler-y treble speakers, I think you'd break apart the integrity of that steady-state, initial drawbar simulation created by the oscillators.

 

True, but I actually wasn't thinking about recreating the B3 w/Leslie but just using that model as a basis of experimentation for other sounds. Sorry if I misled. In fact, it's the opposing LFO plus a suboscillator thing that's got me thinking.

 

Such are the seeds of innovation . . .

 

Y'know, I just remembered that I recorded an organist once that had a small electronic Leslie, looked like a small guitar amp, no moving parts. While not sounding as good as the real thing, I recall I was impressed at the time. That was 1980 or thereabouts. I can't even remember the name of the band now, let alone who made that device.

[ski]

Y'know, I just remembered that I recorded an organist once that had a small electronic Leslie, looked like a small guitar amp, no moving parts. While not sounding as good as the real thing, I recall I was impressed at the time. That was 1980 or thereabouts. I can't even remember the name of the band now, let alone who made that device.

 

Could it have been the Multivox Fullrotor or the Little David (OMG, how do I remember this stuff?!?!)

[fader8]

Could it have been the Multivox Fullrotor or the Little David (OMG, how do I remember this stuff?!?!)

 

ski, could've been either of those.

 

Obviously YOU didn't meet quota on brain cell deathcount in your youth!

[CplusE]

Real Pro's talking here. Step aside please, Step Aside please...