What is Thomas Dolby talking about?

[sondod]

Any ideas how Thomas Dolby is accomplishing this:

I work in [Apple] Logic, and I actually find I can record layers into a loop and … have a strip that basically aliases them for the appropriate part in the song. If I put it in the main section, the B section … as soon as those bars are filled up, it will alias them everywhere else I need them in the song. So I have the structure pre-determined, but I have a two- or four bar-cycle that I’m feeding stuff into live. It’s in there, it’s in a spawned form in the rest of the song.

 

If I understand what he's saying he basically has recording regions which automatically produce aliases of themselves. But it doesn't sound like he has it on a loop, just like a punch-in that auto populates the other sections of a song, continuing the linear playback after the four bars. Anyone have any ideas how to accomplish this?

[David Nahmani]

Here's my idea of what that might mean:

 

I think he uses a cycle at the beginning of the song, and has several tracks populated with empty MIDI regions. The empty MIDI regions have aliases at several places later in the song.

 

Then while the cycle is running he can select a track and record inside that MIDI region, populating all the aliases that form the song. When he's done, he can turn the cycle off and the song plays.

[shivermetimbers]

Here is the article. Get blinded by science! 8)

 

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/07/13/thomas-dolby-extras-live-performance-technical-details-logic-maxmsp/

 

 

"...Logic’s got some things that are very annoying about it, given what I’m doing. One, for example, is that a soft synth in Logic — if it hasn’t been input to for a while — goes to sleep. That means the first time you hit a note, there’s a pause of maybe 20 milliseconds, and then a bit of a glitch and it comes in. And that’s on top of the latency that exists anyway. So it’s very bad for my playing."

[Fred B]

"...Logic’s got some things that are very annoying about it, given what I’m doing. One, for example, is that a soft synth in Logic — if it hasn’t been input to for a while — goes to sleep. That means the first time you hit a note, there’s a pause of maybe 20 milliseconds, and then a bit of a glitch and it comes in. And that’s on top of the latency that exists anyway. So it’s very bad for my playing."

That's in fact a VERY annoying "feature" of Logic. I have the same problem when using Logic for live playback of computer generated music (midi streams). As mentioned in the article, the only way for glitch-free operation is to send false controller events, in particular before playing the first note.

[David Nahmani]

That's in fact a VERY annoying "feature" of Logic.

Agreed. Couple with the fact that often the first time you play a song you'll get Core Audio alerts, especially when new tracks have their first region, as if they "woke up". Once you've played the track once through, it will play fine.

 

VERY annoying.

[sondod]

Here's my idea of what that might mean:

 

I think he uses a cycle at the beginning of the song, and has several tracks populated with empty MIDI regions. The empty MIDI regions have aliases at several places later in the song.

 

Then while the cycle is running he can select a track and record inside that MIDI region, populating all the aliases that form the song. When he's done, he can turn the cycle off and the song plays.

 

Is there a way to send system messages which will toggle different cycle regions. By example if there's a piano part which starts at bar one and the bass doesn't come in until bar 9, being able to cycle 1-5, a few times finally taking the 3rd time, leaving cycle mode and/or moving the cycle region to 9-13.

 

Another alternative would be to use auto punch-in regions but i think the same issue applies with multi instruments.

 

I guess I'm just wondering how much mousing around Dolby is doing because I would think the ideal would be to not have to touch the mouse at all.

[David Nahmani]

Look at marker and cycle key commands, there are a few to move the cycle around.

[emilenitrate]

I think of those initial core alerts as digital "air bubbles" that have to be "bled" out of the system. Everybody seems to get them and of course, nobody likes it. I'm sure Apple is aware of it.

[sondod]

"...Logic’s got some things that are very annoying about it, given what I’m doing. One, for example, is that a soft synth in Logic — if it hasn’t been input to for a while — goes to sleep. That means the first time you hit a note, there’s a pause of maybe 20 milliseconds, and then a bit of a glitch and it comes in. And that’s on top of the latency that exists anyway. So it’s very bad for my playing."

That's in fact a VERY annoying "feature" of Logic. I have the same problem when using Logic for live playback of computer generated music (midi streams). As mentioned in the article, the only way for glitch-free operation is to send false controller events, in particular before playing the first note.

 

So in the article he talks about a max/msp app that pings the software instruments to prevent this from happening. What type of message do you think its sending?

[David Nahmani]

So in the article he talks about a max/msp app that pings the software instruments to prevent this from happening. What type of message do you think its sending?

Sometimes I send note on events with a velocity of zero.

[Fred B]

So in the article he talks about a max/msp app that pings the software instruments to prevent this from happening. What type of message do you think its sending?

Sometimes I send note on events with a velocity of zero.

Yes, that works well for waking up the instruments at start. However, Dolby is using recurrent messages to keep the instruments awake. In this case a note event with velocity of zero (=note off) might possibly interfere with the actual performance. So I think he just sends some controller which is definitely not used for the performance, maybe something like cc11 with value 127.

[bryla]

Great article!

But can someone explain in details how to do that thing with the empty regions and cycles and stuff?

[sondod]

So in the article he talks about a max/msp app that pings the software instruments to prevent this from happening. What type of message do you think its sending?

Sometimes I send note on events with a velocity of zero.

Yes, that works well for waking up the instruments at start. However, Dolby is using recurrent messages to keep the instruments awake. In this case a note event with velocity of zero (=note off) might possibly interfere with the actual performance. So I think he just sends some controller which is definitely not used for the performance, maybe something like cc11 with value 127.

 

Yeah this is what I was thinking. I'm going to try creating a bidule layout that does this. I'm wondering though what's the time it takes for the instruments to go to sleep. Is it a minute or two. I guess I could try to test it. My thought is not to constantly send the message but to send it like once a minute or so, that way it doesn't end up being too much of a powerdrain if there's one insterted on every VI being used.

[Fred B]

I'm wondering though what's the time it takes for the instruments to go to sleep.

Good question. I don't know exactly, but in my experience it's at least one minute.

[sondod]

Great article!

But can someone explain in details how to do that thing with the empty regions and cycles and stuff?

 

I've been playing around with things as David says. From what I've gathered its something like this.

 

- Draw a blank region with your pencil tool in Arrange.

- Loop that blank region for as long as you like.

- Convert loops to Aliases.

 

Now here's the tricky part. I haven't figured out a way yet to directly record in that blank region. Instead a region is recorded and I have to join the two regions at which point all of the aliases play as expected.

 

Am I blind or is there really no way to move the autodrop region the way you can the cycle regions with key commands?

[David Nahmani]

Now here's the tricky part. I haven't figured out a way yet to directly record in that blank region.

Make sure in File > Song Settings > Recording... you have checked "Merge new recording with selected region" or something of that nature.

 

Then just select the region.

[sondod]

Well here's a bidule group for the BiduleMFX plugin. This requires a purchase of bidule (to use the AU plugin version), but if you're doing stuff live in Logic the $80 is worth it.

 

Using this on any VI will send out a CC message (you can choose which defaults to 100) at each measure while playing. It's a little more frequent than I would have liked and I haven't put it through extensive testing so let me know if you have any issues with it.

 

Dave let me know if this is beyond the scope of the forum. I have other groups built especially for Logic I wouldn't mind sharing. One of them combines the Chord Memorizer with midi filters in bidule that reroutes to different channels on a multi-instrument. I'm hoping to get it combined with articulation switching as well.

 

At any rate enjoy.

CC Ping.bgrp.zip

[David Nahmani]

I would recommend you start a Bidule thread in the Templates section, and just upload all the Bidule templates to the same threads!