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Unneeded Key Signatures and Line Break Warnings


Plowman

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Two questions. 

 

1. Logic occasionally generates redundant key signatures. Since space is at a premium in a full score orchestral system, these are quite unwelcome. As the movie shows, I can get rid of the redundant key signatures by joining two separate regions (which I am doing, then un-doing in Main off-screen). But A. I have numerous separate regions that do *not* generate redundant key signatures -- in fact, most do not. (Incidentally, both of the regions shown have the same Score Style). And B. I have good reasons to keep these regions separate, so joining them isn't a solution. 

 

1103663517_UnneededKeySignaturewithNewRegion.gif.04e9f0b699fd78c6d198f3fe390e3a24.gif

 

2. I also get line break warning spaces for key signatures where there is no new key signature on the following page. There's simply an indentation of the last bar line, but up and down the system, there is no new key signature on any staff. You can see that in the movie too. I can get rid of these by disabling the line break warnings, of course, but obviously, I'd like such warnings when notational practice calls for it. 

 

Thanks for any insight. I won't be posting a file, but perhaps others have seen this issue. 

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Sadder evidence of a bug at work, but I'll wait for confirmation before I notify Apple. 

 

Below (off-screen), I'm moving the key change to Bar 30 as an experiment. The unnecessary key signature at bar 34 disappears. When I return the key change to its correct location (bar 31), the redundant key signature at bar 34 returns. 

 

By the way, when I "Hide All" key signatures, the problem remains. 

 

787492493_UnneededKeySignaturewithNewRegionPart2.thumb.gif.47b99d7d701b799ae011281dd667d0f8.gif

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Observed. I'm sure you've tried switching staff styles. I have, and nothing changes. It's also seen in all three view modes, so it does not appear to be linked to a system / bar layout.

 

Here's more. See what happens when I drag a G# minor key change into bar 2. Several redundant key signatures appear in bar 3. I disable "Fill Gaps," which might give a hint of the problem's root. But even then, un-gapped tracks show redundant key signatures too, as seen in the flute and violin staves on bar 4. 

 

1416004016_AnotherKeySignatureIssue.gif.3af59118f3539b7ed6fcd2c6d956e11f.gif 

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I have to think this through as to why I thought to do this.....

Original staff style for example on horns is Bb, 

At measure 4 you have a key change ( from the part box) to G# minor ( which is B Major). 

Bb to B is up a 1/2 step. 

So I created a new staff style and transposed it up 1/2 step.

 

Again I have to think why I thought of this so intuitively - but anytime a region goes from one key to another, the key signature will show unless it is the same as the previous region. The previous region was B ( or G# minor) due to the key change from the part box, so the new staff style has to be up 1/2 step to be the same as previous region, hence making it not appear.

 

Regardless - there is still something not right as in attempting to reproduce your issue - I seemed to have uncovered some strange behavior.  I need to go back and look at this in 10.2 or earlier to see if it responds differently.

 

 

2113824155_ScreenShot2016-10-10at11_34_02PM.png.c505ce6a534a9d00cd8f676c0c06bb02.png2113824155_ScreenShot2016-10-10at11_34_02PM.png.c505ce6a534a9d00cd8f676c0c06bb02.png

646235739_ScreenShot2016-10-10at11_34_36PM.png.f5f56415436132716b5a10340d542380.png

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Great stuff. 

 

Below, all I do is cut a pre-existing group of regions, and they all re-represent the key signature plainly seen two bars earlier, with no key change. (There is, however, a different initial key in Bar 1. If I delete that and make the whole file the same key from the start, the issue seen in this movie does not occur.)

 

597290540_YetAnotherKeySignatureIssue.thumb.gif.139bf1df0324505acddbff2db5e92c2d.gif

 

One final moment of nuttiness. Look what happens when I alter the start of the actual, intended key signature change at bar 13 back and forth a couple of bars. The unnecessary key signature at bar 16 disappears and reappears. 

 

2062732328_YetOneMoreKeySignatureIssue.gif.b8c921c1ab5537748f59cf8077752d50.gif

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There is a bug there somewhere.... I agree with you.

I thought it may have had to do with gaps, but after removing all the gaps and elongating the regions. Still same issue. ( sometimes key signature shows up).

I started to move regions around to see impact on where key change is vs region start and behavior below is what occurred. 

I have no explanation for this at this time......

757346624_plowman3.thumb.gif.149eb2c5ae0f0358584e6042ddc8dec5.gif

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Plowman Try this....

If the key change is at the beginning of a region, then any subsequent region will not show the same key.  However if the key change is in the middle of a region, then the subsequent region will show a redundant key change. So the work around is, make sure all key changes begin at the start of a region, the they don't - just cut them at that location and the down stream key changes goes away.....

 

548998047_plowman4.thumb.gif.d62a0093e4daaf69dd7776afbde0d5b4.gif

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Good get Greg. 

 

In my last nuttiness movie, the reason the redundant key signature briefly corrected (disappeared) was that I coincidentally moved the initial, intended key signature to the beginning of the previous regions. 

 

This final movie re-illustrates what Greg has shown. The key change is in bar 3. The regions begin in bar 1. There are redundant key signatures in bar 5. When I cut the first set of regions at bar 3, the new regions to the right of the cut now start on the intended key change. As Greg discovered, the redundant key signatures on bar 5 disappear. 

 

Then I disable Fill Gaps at 0:10 to show that Logic correctly re-displays the key signature when the staves resume at bar 5, after the bar 4 gap. And that's appropriate. 

 

[ EDIT: I then rejoin the regions, un-doing the region cut. And then I turn Fill Gaps back on .]

 

The bug is, when Fill Gaps is turned back on, Logic re-prints the key signature at bar 5. Only now, the bar 4 empty staff supplied by Fill Gaps makes the extra key change on bar 5  redundant and notationally incorrect. 

 

The condition: this only happens if, in previous bars, a key change does not start at the beginning of a region. Cut the region at the key change and the subsequent key signatures appear with Fill Gaps disabled (correct, after the gap) and disappear with Fill Gaps enabled (also correct, after the empty staves).   

 

Again, great work, Greg. 

 

 

622200279_Work-AroundforRedundantKeySignatures.thumb.gif.b61bf83023234d4a2d879ce3684ee1a7.gif

 

P.S. A bug report has been filed. 

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