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Advanced Score Notation Challenge


volovicg

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Steinberg is introducing a new notation/scoring program called Dorico.

On their website is a screenshot of a measure for which they claim is "advanced notation".

I wanted to see if I could achieve those same advanced notation results in logic....

 

This is not for the faint of heart - however might be a good challenge for those score editor fanatics who really want to test their knowledge.

 

1690413853_ScreenShot2016-10-18at9_13_01AM.thumb.png.49a5641bc2130bb43c5eea83ca82cd8c.png

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Interesting...what is the flat with the repeat marking usually seen for a roll? One slash, two slashes.. I've never seen such a thing...Also, why is a C# unmarked (as it is in the weird key signature) and then forced accidental later in the measure.  And maybe more important, who could actually play this measure.
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I'm less concerned about whether Logic is or isn't capable of matching up to Dorico than I am about that measure making no sense rhythmically. Let's add up the beats... Starting from the top you've got a quarter note (2 beats). Then, the septuplet is bounded by two normal sixteen notes for a total of 3 "normal" beats so far. That leaves 7 beats to account for. But there are only 3.5 beats worth of 16th notes in that septuplet. Are they supposed to be played in the time of 7 eighth notes? If so, that itself makes no sense. 
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A slash on a flat is a half flat (i.e., a quarter tone). I was taught that a reversed flat (the backwards flat) is the same thing. The double slash on a flat may be a three-quarter flat, but I am less certain of that. A backwards flat immediately next to a normal flat is also a three-quarter flat, but this wouldn't be the first time music notation uses two different symbols for the same thing. 

 

How would such a thing be replicated in Logic? The auxiliary flat symbol with tremolo slashes superimposed that were shrunken with the Size Tool? Alas, a bridge too far for me. 

 

The article "Flat (music)" on Wikipedia briefly mentions these things, though there is no mention of the double-slashed flat. (I can't get the link to work, but it's easily found.)

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If you want to do exotic scoring, the open-source program MuseScore can do this and more.

 

And I think that it's kind of unfair to expect Logic to do it.  You see, "Logic is, fundamentally, a DAW."  Its world-view, so to speak, consists of (among other things ...) "events of precise duration at precise moments in time."  It represents this world-view in several ways:  piano-roll, score view, and so on.  Its ultimate raison d'entre is ... sound.

 

Meanwhile, "a music scoring program" is focused specifically on the printed page.  It customarily provides some kind of "playback" feature to help you hear what your printed page might "sound like," but its ultimate raison is:  paper.  Whether-or-not the software is capable of [meaningfully] "playing back" what you have written, it above all allows you to write it.  That's its job.  Bagpipes?  Shape-notes?  16th Century music scores?  Bring it on ... bring it on ...

 

As you may recall, several years ago I identified a need to have "a good scoring program," and I decided to evaluate MuseScore, Finale, and Sibelius, starting with MuseScore of course because it is free.  (Although money was, so to speak, no object.)  And-d-d-d-d... I stopped my search with MuseScore and have been happily using it ever since.  Although I am not a professional composer, I consider it to be "industrial strength" and would recommend it to anyone.  I simply never pursued the other two programs because my needs were met – and, exceeded – with my very first pick.  (And, of course, also because I am not involved with any projects that might have "standardized on" something else.)

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Steinberg is introducing a new notation/scoring program called Dorico.

On their website is a screenshot of a measure for which they claim is "advanced notation".

I wanted to see if I could achieve those same advanced notation results in logic....

 

This is not for the faint of heart - however might be a good challenge for those score editor fanatics who really want to test their knowledge.

 

Screen Shot 2016-10-18 at 9.13.01 AM.png

Good job! I guess that you must have pounded for quite some time...

Did you use a specific font?

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Okay, full disclosure. I actually thought what Greg did initially was cut and paste the Steinberg screen shot and then invite us to attempt it. I did not realize the screen shot was in Logic.  

 

Here's the original from Dorico's site:

 

Dorico.png.4e9225c6a17df3561aa78f85c74ac7c4.png

 

 

And Greg's:

 

Volovic.thumb.png.a19607f2afe1e9a89a202296fa4bb277.png

 

 

Can that backwards flat be replicated that's in the second space treble? Also, I guess the natural on the fourth space should be hidden, as the double-slash flat at the beginning should not be cancelled out, according to the original. 

 

Not too long ago, Logic added some more jazz symbols. They might add these micro-tonal symbols too. 

 

So Greg, how *did* you do the little slashes in the flat signs? 

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hahaha.... at a conference so sorry for the delay....

 

First here is the actually image from the steinberg website I was trying to duplicate 

 

225951606_ScreenShot2016-10-20at8_23_00AM.png.db61bbd65ea7fd587a798d6441e86fae.png

 

Ski/Dan - since you cannot see the barline - you can't determine its compliance to musical standards or if its more free form. The point and purpose of my post has nothing to do with analyzing its musical correctness, but quite to the contrary in showing logic can in fact duplicate a score for which a new application on the market indicates these are some of the advanced functions that  differentiate its (the Dorica product) from others. So, I decided to attempt to duplicate it (technically) for which I was able to achieve in Logic and the results are below ( I did update a few items I missed on the first pass)

 

1004494130_ScreenShot2016-10-21at2_28_12PM.png.ad1b49c6e25078b35e0e1a7401d3473d.png

 

 

 

Plowman answered the questions on 1/2 flat

 

Atlas - thanks - yes it took more time than normal.  Starting with trying to make the tempo 112 in 10/8 time ( just try that one and see if you can do it in 15 seconds as one would expect.....).  The triplet and tuplets are not graphical but really are a triplet and septuplet (clicking on each will bring up the tuplet parameter dialogue box) - also notice the flags on the first and last 16th note (more to make you go hmmmmm)

 

I tend to use (most time) the Bravaura font and that is what I used here as well.

 

Mark - You keep saying Logic is not a scoring program because of its Sequencer roots, yet I keep demonstrating that complex notation can in fact be done in Logic's score editor. You also keep pushing Muscscore - which is fine if you want use it - but I am not switching from Logic's as I prefer its scoring capabilities.  So logic can in fact do exotic scoring and I don't think it it unfair to compare or ask Logic to do this stuff - for as you can see if it quite capable of being achieved.

 

Plowman - yes - that is the implementation of the score in logic ( that is why I showed logic's score editor local menu so it was clear the score is in fact duplicated in Logic. 

 

Very cool stuff in my opinion.

 

more info about the slashes on the flats

1/2 flat = 50 cents lower than unaltered note

Symbol is usually the backwards flat sign (called "mirrored-flat" in mscore). Some prefer to use the flat sign with a slash through it instead (called "flat-slash")

 

1 1/2 flat = 150 cents lower than unaltered note

Symbol is usually the backwards flat sign combined with the normal flat sign (called "mirrored-flat2" in mscore). Some prefer to use two flat signs with a slash through it instead (called "flat-flat-slash").

Edited by volovicg
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Well done.. (though I see a small "tell" on the big beam below the 7 tuplet)  

 

Yes, I'm often surprised at what Logic's Notation features can do and often frustrated that I can't do some very simple things easily... but such is life and it's good for the brain to find workarounds.  By the way, I'm LOVING the Jazz Font for my Big Band Arrangements.  Easy on the eye and very stylish...

 

I spent some time looking at Dorico videos and stuff.  While interesting, especially the ability to not have bar lines, it seems a rather "academic/graphic" approach as opposed to a musical approach from what I've seen thus far.  I didn't quickly find any videos where they weren't doing step input... and speaking of input...

 

 This is an idea that Ski and I pitched to Apple for Logic and I even pitched to another company and am thinking of pitching to Steinberg for Dorico... The idea is to have a scoring program that works like our brains do when we write music by hand on staff/score paper... Ski did a fantastic bit of magic to make this look like it exists... but alas, it's all CGI .. I'd be interested to see what people think of this idea. Using a pencil (mouse or stylus) to ghost what you'll get to when you input a note and the measure reflecting a possible note's location in actual notation before it has been input.  This would be great, especially for writing harmony or counterpoint or vocal arrangement.  This video shows a (very) basic example of the idea. Click here>   Dan's Magic Pencil Tool

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Dan's idea, my rendering. I'd LOVE to see this in Logic. It would make a huge difference!

 

As it stands I'm 95% fine with Logic's ability to do notation. Logic has always been missing that 5% that would make it more complete as a notation tool and easier to use in certain ways despite numerous improvements over many years (some of them major). But I'm not sure it's worth getting all invested in whether Logic can "do it all". There are plenty of copyists out there running Sibelius (and soon Dorico) who can take up the slack and be at the receiving end of a check for their trouble. Sometimes I think that what stands between actually getting work done in a timely fashion (or not) comes down to something I see a lot of... a penchant for getting the machine to "do everything" (and spending forever trying to accomplish that goal) as opposed to farming out some of the work to a copyist with the tools to finish the job as necessary. You... You... Cheapskates! :mrgreen:

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Dan's idea has me re-living my first notation program in DOS called Music Printer Plus. When I moved to Logic (2.0, I think), I was quickly disappointed with the Pencil Tool, because it was nothing but a pencil icon. My DOS program's cursor WAS whatever symbol you were about to enter, as selected by, well, a "key command" though we didn't call it that. 

 

There is nothing more visually appropriate to graphic symbol entry that seeing the symbol itself right where you're about to place it. So hooray for Dan's idea. It combines the visual clue that you're in symbol entry mode because you see the pencil with the very symbol about to be entered. Why should the eye need to move from the pencil to the symbol palette to confirm what is chosen back to the pencil's point of entry? So I hope something comes of this. 

 

 

Personally, I love the way Greg pushes Logic Score to the limit. It's notational Crossfit. One more rep. 

 

Greg shows what can be done. The subsequent question is, how easily? Consider two unflattering examples of Logic's helpfulness.

 

If you slur triplet notes, the curve can plop down on the bracket. It looks horrible and requires a manual fix. (By contrast, Logic triplet brackets DO adjust for staccato and marcato marks. So it is somewhat aware of the concept of symbol collision.)

 

Now if you put a manually corrected slurred triplet from Logic next to one from a dedicated notation program that cleaned it up automatically, they would appear identical. But the notation program got you there as the crow flies. Logic gets there like a distracted dog -- the user tugs on the leash. 

 

Or take tremolo slashes on a stemmed note. A PDF from Logic and a dedicated score program would look the same. But if the Logic user shifts the pitch of that note enough to cause a stem flip, we all know that the tremolo slash does not follow along. So we grab our mouse or trackpad and do what we do, and we do it so quickly it's second-hand... but our dexterity is not Logic's excuse. 

 

These are two extremely common notation practices. And adjusting such things on extended full orchestral scores is, well, it's the reason why ski's copyists dine at Chateau Marmont.  

 

Logic is a decathlete. It does ten things extraordinarily. Its Score abilities are undersold by many, and I think Greg is proving the possible. But a decathlete rarely competes in individual events because someone will always be better at just one thing. If Dorico is better at score printing, or at least, more helpful with common tasks, so be it -- now show me its Environment. 

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One other tip... notational parlor tricks aside, the first step towards getting the appearance of Logic's notation to be in the same league as Sibelius, Dorico (et al) is to download the Bravura font and use it in lieu of Logic's standard font. 
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Each program is ALSO a language.  Spelling is much easier in Spanish, yet I stumble through trying to speak in any tense other than present. I sat down with a Finale user and could barely do anything, yet I know it's a powerful program.  So while I may be able to competently order a taco in Spanish, it would take years for me to be able to write this post in Spanish.  Verdad!  So for now, foibles and folly though there may be in Logic's notation department or in English's bizarre spelling, I continue to work in the languages I grew up with.  Also, as for Ski's love of Bravura, I am so enjoying having my Big Band music look cool instead of academic.  AND, it's a more natural reading process for the musicians, believe it or not, it swings more in this font....

452462305_ScreenShot2016-10-22at9_59_07AM.png.90de0aa050ba009d6516e5095b1eac9c.png

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Dan

Very nicely articulated and love your Spanish anaolgy. That is also why I welcome enhancements to Logic, however a complete architectural re-write would be unwelcomed, similar to re-writing the grammatical rules for English. Takes a long time to learn, but once you know it - you want I use it effectively- not start over.

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Just the one, matey, just the one.

images.png.aa05e106a7cd0f8e11267e32e0f96716.png

 

Nah, it's just that I've been using Bravura for so long now... when I looked at your time signature I kinda went "huh?" and double-checked my system too. Whew! 

 

I have to say, I'm a bit mystified as to how you got those detached-beam 16th's at either end, but... I don't wanna know how you did it. I'd rather it remain one of those fascinating mysteries of life. :)

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