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Adding Reverb without Muddying Sound of Piano


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Hey everyone!

Im trying to figure out how to get a specific sound with one of NI kontakt's pianos. Im trying to get the fairly clear sound of the piano in the song shown below, but whenever I add reverb or try to do anything to the piano, it just seems to muddy the sound up. Ive also tried cutting out the lows in the piano with EQing, but it doesn't seem to work too well, or at least to my ears.... If anyone has any advice, Id appreciate it!!!!

 

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I've been using the free reverb from TAL a lot lately, and it seems to work really well on whatever i throw at it and super easy controls, if you've not got it, it's a great freebie and may help you:-

 

https://tal-software.com/products/tal-reverb-4

 

Particularly i find the delay parameter on that reverb to really help if anything sounds a bit too muddy, if you get it right it adds additional feeling to the overall playing, but most importantly by pre-delaying (any) reverb you make space for the punch (Hammer of the piano in this instance) of the sound to come through.  I am currently in love with it! :)

 

Also, are you bussing out to a reverb or running it as an insert effect within the same (Piano) channel strip?  Sometimes i find it helps to bus out to a reverb and then place a slight compressor after the send goes out, so that the raw piano (in this case) goes to the reverb, and a slightly compressed version sits on top.

 

Also, reverb type is important, as above the TAL reverb is plate reverb so it's not adding to the sound, even if you push the wet parameter up it still manages to sit behind, giving a more ambient length to the sound.  Whereas Hall/Room types tend to add more body/depth in my experience, and a spring will really affect the sound.

 

One other thing, of course, check that Kontakt isn't already applying reverb/delay or some other effects which may be cause it to muddy up with the additional reverb you're applying.

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I've been using the free reverb from TAL a lot lately, and it seems to work really well on whatever i throw at it and super easy controls, if you've not got it, it's a great freebie and may help you:-

 

https://tal-software.com/products/tal-reverb-4

 

Particularly i find the delay parameter on that reverb to really help if anything sounds a bit too muddy, if you get it right it adds additional feeling to the overall playing, but most importantly by pre-delaying (any) reverb you make space for the punch (Hammer of the piano in this instance) of the sound to come through.  I am currently in love with it! :)

 

Also, are you bussing out to a reverb or running it as an insert effect within the same (Piano) channel strip?  Sometimes i find it helps to bus out to a reverb and then place a slight compressor after the send goes out, so that the raw piano (in this case) goes to the reverb, and a slightly compressed version sits on top.

 

Also, reverb type is important, as above the TAL reverb is plate reverb so it's not adding to the sound, even if you push the wet parameter up it still manages to sit behind, giving a more ambient length to the sound.  Whereas Hall/Room types tend to add more body/depth in my experience, and a spring will really affect the sound.

 

One other thing, of course, check that Kontakt isn't already applying reverb/delay or some other effects which may be cause it to muddy up with the additional reverb you're applying.

I am not sure if I did what you said correctly, but I'm still feeling that the audio is too muddy. I tried to turn off any and all reverb coming from Kontact and bus out to a reverb. I have no idea if I did it right or not though. Here is what I have right now: https://soundcloud.com/kyle-musser-1/audio-for-forum-question 

 

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Doesn't sound muddy at all.

You can always filter offending frequencies with subtractive EQ.

Maybe "muddy" isn't the correct wording for it. If you listen to the intro of the actual song and then proceed to listen to my version, It just doesn't seem as clear and distinct. Maybe the word I'm looking for would be along the lines of "muffled" or something else. My version just doesn't have as crisp of a sound to it, if you understand what I'm trying to say. How do you draw out the clear and crisp sound?

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They probably used a real piano in the original recording.

What microphones would you recommend getting to record a grand piano? I have one available for use that I can record. I already have a Blue Baby Bottle mic and was looking into getting some other mics. I guess this would be the time to do it.

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(Full disclosure: "educated pure-amateur here ...")

 

In quite a few of the Logic library patches, I notice the following "trick" being used: the main strip includes one-or-more "aux sends" to separate strips, each of which use "rooms," and possibly-different "downstream processing" of the sounds coming from those rooms.

 

Therefore, the sound that you actually hear is not: "the sound of the instrument being played, perhaps in 'a [necessarily, "single" ...] room.'" (Which would be the case if the aux-sends were not being used, and of course which would also be the case "in real life.")  

 

Instead, what you're hearing is a combination of both the pure instrument sound, and(!) the same sound "in a room ... or ... rooms."  In parallel. Appropriately blended together.

 

This would enable you to hear "the pristine piano sound" – directly ... ... ... as though you were "sitting on the front row in a glorious concert hall" – indirectly.  The best of both acoustic worlds.

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I am not sure if I did what you said correctly, but I'm still feeling that the audio is too muddy. I tried to turn off any and all reverb coming from Kontact and bus out to a reverb. I have no idea if I did it right or not though. Here is what I have right now: https://soundcloud.com/kyle-musser-1/audio-for-forum-question  

The playing sounds a little bit too robotic to me, maybe over-quantised, but definitely the keys are at a higher velocity which is taking it away from the delicate sound of the original.  That's most of your problem i feel, the result is that there's less 'feeling' and dynamics there and it sounds over-plucky/full.

 

I would drop that velocity down (Presuming this is in midi data still), Relax the quantising, and then process it afterwards to lay the reverb behind, and use EQ to bring out the brightness.

 

Failing that, it sounds to me like the original could maybe be two piano parts layered, the first being a sustained chord that holds across 2x bars(ish), the second being the single melody notes.  Although i am listening on MacBook speakers right now, so a little bit tricky to hear for sure.

 

Listening to your soundcloud link again, that first chord you play has very little sustain on it at all, so you're not smothering that nice piano in the background enough, i think that's making the keys sound more plucky also.

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  • 1 month later...
I always send to an aux with a reverb on it rather than inserting into the instrument channel - this gives you a lot more control over the verb tail itself, you can sculpt it with EQ and expand it to manage the decay more precisely. Also, keep in mind the sonic qualities that "catch" reverb more readily: transients, or at least distinctive attacks (vs a sustained pad type of sound) and, notably, upper mids. Try experimenting with enhancing the 1-5K range a bit, not necessarily on the dry piano, but on the reverb feed - insert the EQ on the aux ahead of the verb. If you get more reverb definition this way you may be able to back off on the send a bit and that might help address your concern with muddiness.
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