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LP 10.4 - Studio horns:changing articulations in the plugin window do nothing


stratquebec

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Can you help please?

  • I create new project
    insert studio horns instrument
    in the library I choose Lead Instruments->Studio Alto Sax 1
    I create a midi region
    double click the region and add a note
    set the cycle
    playback
    I click on the Horns instrument slot on the channel strip
    I change the articulation in the Studio Alto Sax 1 instrument plugin window

The note play without any change to the articulation no matter what articulation I choose.

I missed something :?:

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You generally change articulations with keyswitches:

https://help.apple.com/logicpro/mac/10.4/#/lgcp99c44c8f

 

You can certainly change them in the plug-in header, but not all instruments have all articulations (or more to the point, some articulations don't work in some instruments as they don't contain the articulation samples).

The articulations themselves are scripted events that trigger specific samples/behaviours in the underlying instrument.

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Thanks for your help Sir oscar! That's not the problem I have though. I have the same problem with Studio Strings. Very basic. Add the instrument, play with the articulation and no changes.

 

It works perfectly in this macprovideo clip http://play.macprovideo.com/what-s-new-in-logic-pro-x10-4/9 but not for me.

Edited by stratquebec
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Open the event list and check the articulation/note event channel.

Select all and change to channel 1 (if not already there)....or perhaps ch 2 (although this should only be relevant for section insts)

See: https://help.apple.com/logicpro/mac/10.4/#/lgcp6d5cd9e1

 

Another thought is transposition of keyswitches (see link in my post above) - either at the track or region level...or perhaps in the controller....although this shouldn't have a bearing on Articulations chosen in the plug-in header.

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Don't think the midi channel is culprit here.....

 

Notice how I can't get the plugin to change the articulation from region events. However, when I play from the musical typing keyboard it works fine and when I change the articulation in the event editor ( not shown below) it works fine. more hmmmmm.....

 

2039200146_hornissuearticulation.thumb.gif.37b1deb5e6b8cbdf7c982ed989c9896c.gif

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Don't think the midi channel is culprit here.....

 

Notice how I can't get the plugin to change the articulation from region events.

 

Hmmmm....

I noticed that the Event List artic column doesn't have an articulation specified in your video clip.

I just created a region, added a few note events, and manually changed the artic column entries for each note in the Event List...and the "last played" field on the plug-in UI updates as expected.

I did the same thing, but recorded the note/keyswitch events...and all worked as expected.

 

The plug-in header Artic field does not update....but this is a designed behaviour (and the reason for the "last played" field)....so these two can be out of sync.

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Don't think the midi channel is culprit here.....

 

Notice how I can't get the plugin to change the articulation from region events.

 

Hmmmm....

I noticed that the Event List artic column doesn't have an articulation specified in your video clip.

I just created a region, added a few note events, and manually changed the artic column entries for each note in the Event List...and the "last played" field on the plug-in UI updates as expected.

I did the same thing, but recorded the note/keyswitch events...and all worked as expected.

 

The plug-in header Artic field does not update....but this is a designed behaviour (and the reason for the "last played" field)....so these two can be out of sync.

 

The articulation field in the plugin header controls the "global" articulation. Changing the value in the event or piano roll editor changes the "per note" articulation. By default, no "per note" articulation exists.

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Here is a good video on the process, though there are more than one way to get it done (I am too ill right now to look it up, sorry). When I followed this procedure exactly, it worked fine.

 

EDIT: Don't know why the video isn't showing. But, copy and paste. :)

 

Edited by Glenn Lancaster
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The articulation field in the plugin header controls the "global" articulation. Changing the value in the event or piano roll editor changes the "per note" articulation. By default, no "per note" articulation exists.

 

 

exactly my point.... hence identifying the inconsistency. If I play the musical typing keyboard ( generating no articulation information) I would expect it to behave similar to a note event without a defined articulation. - however the note event in the region (when played) is not affected by the global articulation setting in the plugin - yet the musical typing keyboard is.

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exactly my point.... hence identifying the inconsistency. If I play the musical typing keyboard ( generating no articulation information) I would expect it to behave similar to a note event without a defined articulation. - however the note event in the region (when played) is not affected by the global articulation setting in the plugin - yet the musical typing keyboard is.

 

Yep! This guy's clip is what I try to replicate. He changes the articulations "globally" using the articulation field into the plugin instrument without problems.

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If I play the musical typing keyboard ( generating no articulation information) I would expect it to behave similar to a note event without a defined articulation. - however the note event in the region (when played) is not affected by the global articulation setting in the plugin - yet the musical typing keyboard is.

 

I have a hard time understanding the problem.

Logic has always behaved this way, or am I missing something?

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OK....I think we're getting closer to figuring this one out....

In essence, there's confusion around the global vs per note articulation handling...correct?

 

Bear with me...as this is gonna be a bit of an exploration tutorial kind of thing....

Hopefully this may be the "lightbulb" moment for someone....and for more experienced hands, I don't mean this to be patronising in any way....but it might help some folks to get their head around how the Artic functions work/are structured. It's new to pretty much all of us, so this basic look at the behind the scenes stuff might be useful....or not :wink:

 

First up...open the onscreen keyboard (not musical typing kb)...and drag it out to the left so the lower octaves are shown.

Have a Studio Inst window open - lets say Alto Sax 1.

In the Track List Inspector, make sure that Alto Sax 1 is chosen as the Artic Set.

Use your mouse to play a few notes in the Articulation section of the onscreen keyboard.

As you do this, you'll see the artic menu in the plug-in header change.

Note that some articulations "stick" (in the artic menu) - Sustain, Expressive Medium etc....but others such as Fall Short/Fall Long flick off as soon as you release the mouse.

The reason for this is found in the Artic Set Editor.

In the Inspector, click on the Artic Set pop-up and choose Edit.

Click the Switches tab...and you'll see different assignments in the Mode column.

Take a look at these by clicking any entry in the column.

Change a few, and try them out with the onscreen keyboard (and/or an external 'board) to see how each mode works/behaves.

 

On the per note stuff....it seems this is pretty straightforward/more clearly understood in the editors, so I won't cover that unless someone specifically asks.

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I am verifying now with in the studio but needed to download the sounds - so going to be a moment....

 

short summary:

 

create a SI track, insert horns, choose one of the alto sax, open the plugin and record enable the track ( get it Live).

Play on the keyboard ( musical typing in my example) and change/ walk thru the various articulations using the plugin drop down menu -

It all works fine - you can hear the various articulations as you cycle through the various ones.

 

Now....Same thing as above - only this time create a midi region, add some notes ( in the correct range), cycle it and play... now change the articulations from the drop down menu just as in the above - nothing changes... you hear only one articulaton

 

Unless I am missing something - neither the MT Live playback nor the notes in the region ( given I did not define any) do not have articulations associated with them - so one would expect they would behave the same way.....

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Unless I am missing something - neither the MT Live playback nor the notes in the region ( given I did not define any) do not have articulations associated with them - so one would expect they would behave the same way.....

 

But they are not the same?

The instrument expect no articulations on Realtime input, but it does on sequencer input.

Events set to no articulation automatically trigger id 1.

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That doesn't make sense based on what I know...Midi thru (now Midi defaults) is post sequencer (first item in the chain) next then onto the channel strip object with the track inspector (instrument object) and the region inspector on the playback side. Since the channel strip is post the "track inspector" changes to a plugin should not be reflected in a recorded region.

However when I press record and change the plugin articulation in real time ( do this and verify please)..... those changes get recorded... This explains what is going on.. now! which indicates the plugin must have an articulation id to respond too.... So when you enter notes in a region without them - you don't hear articulation changes ( this makes sense) - however if you play live and you change the articulation - you do hear them - this signal flow doesn't make sense...track inspector parameter adjustments should not find themselves in recorded regions..... not for the faint of heart nor those who don't care - but the object oriented signal flow in logic is one of the basic foundations that makes it awesome - and when the developers create these exceptions to the rules - it becomes more like DP or other DAW's and the signal flow not so obvious. Probably just something I am missing - I know :)

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However when I press record and change the plugin articulation in real time ( do this and verify please)

 

Yes. I can verify this.

 

So when you enter notes in a region without them - you don't hear articulation changes ( this makes sense) - however if you play live and you change the articulation - you do hear them - this signal flow doesn't make sense...track inspector parameter adjustments should not find themselves in recorded regions..... not for the faint of heart nor those who don't care - but the object oriented signal flow in logic is one of the basic foundations that makes it awesome

 

I understand exactly how you are thinking.

The difference is that Articulation ID is not MIDI. It's a proprietary add-on that is coupled with Notes and other MIDI events. They only exist in Logic.

 

Notice how the Articulation selector in the plug-in is a part of the plug-in window itself and not the instrument.

Picture it as a "sidechain" to the sequencer input, remotely tagging the incoming events with Articulations on sequencer input.

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Great analogy !! with the side chain and two halves of the plugin, got me closer - plus I forgot about the staff style parameter for new region creation which is another parameter that works counter-intuitive to the instrument inspector ( track inspector ) concept.

BTW the articulation symbols reflect themselves in the score now - Pretty Cool!!!! except another visual bug where if you change the symbol in the inspector - you don't see the change until you change the articulation ( toggle out and back) on the note or in the event list...

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However when I press record and change the plugin articulation in real time ( do this and verify please)

 

Yes. I can verify this.

 

So when you enter notes in a region without them - you don't hear articulation changes ( this makes sense) - however if you play live and you change the articulation - you do hear them - this signal flow doesn't make sense...track inspector parameter adjustments should not find themselves in recorded regions..... not for the faint of heart nor those who don't care - but the object oriented signal flow in logic is one of the basic foundations that makes it awesome

 

I understand exactly how you are thinking.

The difference is that Articulation ID is not MIDI. It's a proprietary add-on that is coupled with Notes and other MIDI events. They only exist in Logic.

 

Notice how the Articulation selector in the plug-in is a part of the plug-in window itself and not the instrument.

Picture it as a "sidechain" to the sequencer input, remotely tagging the incoming events with Articulations on sequencer input.

 

Well... articulations are part of the MIDI 2 spec. I expect that was Apple’s implementation of the standard.

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