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Score Editor: Can I show multiple instruments on a single staff?


patmaddox

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Hi, I don't have LPX yet. I'm going to go to the apple store later soon to play around with it (I have used older versions and generally like it).

 

Anyway, I'm looking at it again primarily because of the Score Editor. I like to play my parts in with keyboard, but view them in notation. Sometimes I'll write directly in notation as well.

 

What I would like to do is have multiple tracks, but be able to view them as a single part in the score editor. So for example if I'm writing strings, I would have the following tracks:

 

* violin 1

* violin 2

* viola

* cello

 

and in Score Editor I would like to see a single grand staff called "Strings" that has all four parts on it. Can I do that? I already know I can view the four parts individually at the same time. Ideally I'd have different "views" where I can switch between separated parts, and a combined staff.

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Well that's cool :)

 

Any chance you could talk me through how to do it, so that I can try it at the apple store? Or do you know of a video?

 

Everything I've seen so far shows each part on its own staff. I've never seen anyone combine four separate MIDI tracks into a single staff.

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Greg, this poster may be asking if multiple tracks can be viewed and edited on a single grand staff. I am not aware that Logic can homogenize several tracks into one displayed staff.

 

He certainly could write all four parts in a single track and alternate with Explode Polyphony. But I think he wants to keep four separate tracks and at the same time view them in a single grand staff. Can that be done?

 

Indeed, one reason key switches are used is to keep an instrument in one track, because multiple tracks ( one for long, for short, pizz., etc.), though convenient for composing, prohibits a single line render of what is simply “violins” to the conductor.

 

I would welcome a secret passage to this kind of one-staff collectivizing of multiple tracks.

 

But this should not dissuade any new user from pursuing Logic, as there are so many ways to get things done.

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Greg, this poster may be asking if multiple tracks can be viewed and edited on a single grand staff. I am not aware that Logic can homogenize several tracks into one displayed staff.

 

That's exactly what I'm asking.

 

Indeed, one reason key switches are used is to keep an instrument in one track, because multiple tracks ( one for long, for short, pizz., etc.), though convenient for composing, prohibits a single line render of what is simply “violins” to the conductor.

 

Ah that brings up another good question – can I hide certain note (keyswitch notes) from the Score Editor?

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Regarding the suppression of key switches in Score, oh yes, absolutely. Staff Styles have range limits as to what they display.

 

Be of good cheer: if you are interested in orchestral writing, know that high-end sample libraries routinely use Logic even in their online demos. My only caution is, if you seek to render scores in print without any regard to their MIDI representation (a CC-detailed, keyswitch intensive, per track automated mock-up), you might consider a dedicated scoring program.

 

But to generate a solid score and a wonderful realization of the sound, nothing beats Logic. This forum is populated by many who take their orchestral print-outs to studio.

 

By the way, writing all strings in one track, viewing it in a grand staff, and THEN parting it out to discrete tracks can be done. You can in turn re-merge them into one track. It's that simultaneous four tracks in Main / one grand staff in Score that has me puzzled.

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Well given plowman made me think about the question... I guess I am not sure whether you meant voices on a single staff or all four on a single staff systems.....

So here is an example of what I meant... let me know if this was indeed your intended question if not, please clarify just a bit.....

I am selecting each part or selecting the total section as I defined them in a score set.....

 

1862390977_Stringsections.thumb.gif.7b0641e010044d80b821d6c0c8e57e61.gif

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In the venerated tradition of four-part harmony exercises and condensed scores, I can see how the poster looks for a grand staff. In my experience. though, Greg's approach -- though it requires more than one track -- has the advantage of preserving sanity.

 

Once, in my zealous youth -- long since passed -- I worked out a MIDI scheme to condense a score (I think it was Franck's Symphony in D, First Movement) into three grand staves, winds, brass, and strings. I color-coded the instruments. Insightful, yes, but on the page... a train wreck of symbol collisions and unison notes squarely on top of each other, indiscernible one instrument to the next.

 

Alas, only the simplest four-part string writing on a Grand Staff is intelligible. Add to it varying articulations, non-concerted dynamics, and polyphony (divisi writing) within each instrument (requiring stems, flags, and beams of opposite directions, possibly times four or even with basses five), and a grand staff moves from impractical to infeasible.

 

Even Greg's example, though not complicated, would be crowded on a single grand staff.

 

The poster might want to research Logic's Explode Polyphony function, which gets him most of the way there, all in one track. I think this website allows for some free previews. Here's ski explaining the feature.

 

https://ask.video/course/logic-pro-x-109-core-training-the-score-editor/20-20-voices-to-channels-explode-polyphony

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My only caution is, if you seek to render scores in print without any regard to their MIDI representation (a CC-detailed, keyswitch intensive, per track automated mock-up), you might consider a dedicated scoring program.

 

But to generate a solid score and a wonderful realization of the sound, nothing beats Logic. This forum is populated by many who take their orchestral print-outs to studio.

 

Yeah my intention is primarily about realizing the sound. It's just that I read notation better than piano roll, and so I want to be able to play my parts in and then read them in notation. I've been using Sibelius for notation and really like it, but when it comes to getting the sound I want using various libraries, it's been a pain in the butt. I don't really want to do the "notate in Sibelius -> play in a DAW thing," and that still leaves me reading piano roll if the DAW doesn't have decent notation. So I'm not looking for engraving features. It's just, when I play music, I want to read it back like music :)

 

I've looked at REAPER and it has a notation view, but I've found it really hard to get the view quantization right. It essentially hard quantizes the view at whatever you set it. So if I want to any 16th notes, it thinks that's the grid and turns a lot of my playing into 16th notes when it's really mostly 8th notes with a few 16th notes thrown in. I'm hoping Logic performs better in identifying the musical intent.

 

As far as doing the condensed score, that's mainly for me to do a quick interval check. Generally speaking I will want each instrument to have its own staff, it's more readable for me that way. But I would like to quickly view it as a reduction as well, just as a check.

 

It does make me wonder how people who work track-per-articulation would make use of the score editor, however.

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so is the visual above what you are looking to do ? Each instrument has its own staff yet you also (with a click) can see the string section in the aggregate...Not sure if it hit the mark here or not....I don't believe there is anything that can't be done in Logic can do it SIB/Reap -
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Good to know. Frankly, I don't know that there's any real-world alternative to Logic, given your goals. And yes, popping from one program to the next for a single piece of music has been a bridge too far for me.

 

Logic's Score is amazing *within the context* of a MIDI and audio production program. And for interval checking, you can at the very least merge regions onto one track, look it over, and do a quick undo.

 

"It essentially hard quantizes the view at whatever you set it." Well, I guess this is what Logic does, but the selection of quantize values is quite large. There's an interplay of settings, among them Quantize, Interpretation, and Syncopation, and it gets a lot right. Significantly, one may quantize Piano Roll one way and Score display another.

 

"It does make me wonder how people who work track-per-articulation would make use of the score editor, however." After viewing my first Score tutorials, I was dumbstruck as to how many tracks were being used. My first Logic was 2.5, and I have always worked with "one track = one instrument = one stave in Score." Indeed, your initial question suggests a wish list feature that I've had for years.

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I want to have the option of toggling between these two views (fwiw neither Sibelius nor REAPER can do this out of the box, you have to merge tracks).

 

I'd like four separate tracks, but the ability to toggle between a separate or combined Score Editor view.

 

split.thumb.png.1b7adcd33ed2d019782aba456a919b3c.png

 

reduction.png.cb6926359418799a44033a8f6cad4994.png

 

Well, I guess this is what Logic does, but the selection of quantize values is quite large. There's an interplay of settings, among them Quantize, Interpretation, and Syncopation, and it gets a lot right. Significantly, one may quantize Piano Roll one way and Score display another.

 

I'm curious, would you be willing to try importing the attached MIDI file and show a screenshot of how Logic shows it in Score Editor? I'd like to see it without any config tweaks if possible. Then if you have to tweak it somehow to make it appear correct, what those tweaks are.

 

unquantized_midi_80bpm.MID

 

Here's how REAPER renders it with 16th note display quantization. Maybe the playing's too sloppy to expect it to get right... but I'm really curious to know how Logic interprets it.

 

reaper.thumb.png.04ce310ecd30251aafde796aaefd01a1.png

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The first image logic can do with a feature called explode polyphony (plowman mentioned it)

 

Well it's more the second example I'm getting at :)

 

I'm going to be writing those four voices on four separate MIDI tracks. So I think Score Editor does that out of the box without having to process the MIDI at all.

 

It's the reduced view that I'm trying to get. I think the way I'd need to do that is by merging the MIDI regions from multiple tracks into a single MIDI region, and view that. Which I can do, I was just hoping I can avoid the merge step.

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I have another somewhat related question, about how a certain workflow would work.

 

So say I play a part in, and via the magic of Score Editor get the notes looking how I want. Now I want a new part. I'm going to write it first, instead of playing it in. So I make a new track.

 

Can I use step input with Score Editor?

 

Assuming yes... once I've written out the line that I want, I decide I want to play it in for more human feel. Does this overwrite the existing MIDI data? Or would it be more like a take?

 

What would be super amazing is if I could quickly write a line using step input (I LOVE the Sibelius input workflow, so if it's even moderately close that would be great), and then afterwards I can record my playing, following the notes in Score Editor.

 

I am planning to go to the Apple store later today to try to figure this stuff out myself. Hopefully I can figure it out pretty quickly... but I wanted to ask here too because you might know one way or the other :)

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Here is the first one..... I only stretched the region to include the pre and post measure rests and select a piano staff style.

 

 

310557711_ScreenShot2018-07-03at8_33_29PM.thumb.png.672847fe9f4126155b1f0a231559819b.png

 

Here is the same only without the empty bars, treble staff style and there was one anomaly corrected by selecting 1/16 quantize.

 

1778842545_ScreenShot2018-07-03at8_39_16PM.thumb.png.5b780b11a603b5d7612101de731d5b0c.png

 

 

 

I don't need to do the staccato one - you will need to export via musicxml not midi to test that one.

 

 

 

and........

Yes you can use step input and use take folders or new tracks (lots of options) and yes you can see what you wrote in as you play in a new one... ( you will need to understand display levels and linking but not a problem - see example below where I took your file and played in another part - watching the score as I played in the new one.....

 

 

594173621_liveplay.gif.aad3e759e23754ff6ac17e9919f67d4a.gif

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My results were the same as Greg's. With the variance being so small, I'd just grab the offending vehicles and add twenty-five ticks in Event List.

 

1786057957_AdjustingEventListforDisplay.thumb.gif.353a5dbb0158777aa5a67b5c2e941dfc.gif

 

Here there are 240 ticks per sixteenth note, so the adjustment is slightly more than one-tenth of one sixteenth. Personally, I would not alter Score display options to accommodate that. May all your live performances be so precise. Mine certainly are not.

 

But my point is, there's just so many ways to get it done in Logic. Ultimately, all notational programs will have a mathematical threshold beyond which one note will, in appearance, shift to another. The more germane question is, how hard is it to correct? Once you get Logic in your fingers, it's not hard at all. (But there WILL be a learning curve.)

 

Beyond that, I cannot add to Greg's always magnanimous answers.

 

Regarding a live performance on top of a penciled entry: one could hand-enter the notes in channel 1, limit the score style to channel one, and then perform "freely" on channel 2 (we assume the software instrument plays only ch. 2). Both channels would be in the same region on the same track, and only the strictly entered notes would appear.

 

Trust me: there are far better ways, but I'm trying to answer the question as it was asked. A wise Logic user would not put a premium on keeping two renders (display / performance) in the same region when the alternatives are so much clearer.

 

In all the years I've read this forum, there are a few repeated tropes. One is a user coming from a notational program to Logic, asking about Step Entry and the like. To be sure, it can be done, but live performance multiplied by Score display options is very powerful, and per-symbol manual entry may lose its allure over time.

 

Cheers.

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There is a feature called explode Polyphony - seen below.

It's primary purpose is for editing to facilitate greater ease in note entry and allow editing of separate voices on separate staffs. Hitting control x will toggle between a grand staff and individual staves.

 

It is for your reference

 

1257536664_explodePolyphony.gif.1bf37dd8376b07af7422452d40ea60b4.gif

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Hey thank you both for checking out the MIDI for me. Logic gets it closer than REAPER... and I definitely have no problem moving things around a few ticks :)

 

You've convinced me! So I bought it and have been messing around with it. There's going to be a big learning curve, but the notation is quite a bit better than REAPER. Logic didn't identify staccato notes (no biggie) but it did at least identify them as quarter notes, whereas REAPER was just painful to look at.

 

Regarding a live performance on top of a penciled entry: one could hand-enter the notes in channel 1, limit the score style to channel one, and then perform "freely" on channel 2 (we assume the software instrument plays only ch. 2). Both channels would be in the same region on the same track, and only the strictly entered notes would appear.

 

Trust me: there are far better ways, but I'm trying to answer the question as it was asked. A wise Logic user would not put a premium on keeping two renders (display / performance) in the same region when the alternatives are so much clearer.

 

Please, share! :)

 

My thinking with that approach was that the step input first pass is me writing a new line that accompanies the first line. Then the live played second pass is the humanized version of it. I don't need to keep both in there... it's just how I'd do it if I were notating with pencil and paper.

 

So the first pass is me writing the line on paper. The second pass is me performing it. Does that make sense?

 

I'm definitely open to learning better ways to approach this.

 

In all the years I've read this forum, there are a few repeated tropes. One is a user coming from a notational program to Logic, asking about Step Entry and the like. To be sure, it can be done, but live performance multiplied by Score display options is very powerful, and per-symbol manual entry may lose its allure over time.

 

Yes, in addition to the overall sound quality, the other main reason for me wanting to work directly in a DAW is so that I can compose more by live playing. That said, I'm coming from pencil and paper / step entry, so I am looking to gradually transition my workflow to more live playing.

 

I appreciate you responding to the question as-is. I also look forward to learning more techniques.

 

Now I wonder: should I open a thread for more questions as I continue to explore and learn Score Editor? Or just keep adding to this thread?

 

Thank you both, again!

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I'm going to be writing those four voices on four separate MIDI tracks. So I think Score Editor does that out of the box without having to process the MIDI at all.

 

It's the reduced view that I'm trying to get. I think the way I'd need to do that is by merging the MIDI regions from multiple tracks into a single MIDI region, and view that. Which I can do, I was just hoping I can avoid the merge step.

 

Logic could achieve what you want the following way for say 4 string instruments:

 

1/ Assign each string Instrument a Track with it's own Region and Midi Channel each with it's correct Staff Style -( Logic supplies editable 'templates' - Staff Styles for most instruments which reflect standard notation transpositions but play at Concert pitch.

 

2/ Create a 5th track with Master Grand Staff Style which has 4 voices - assign each Voice separately to the midi channel that you have chosen in making the individual Instrument Tracks above.

 

3/ Cut and Paste the Notes from each Instrument into the Master Grand Staff Style - assigned to a separate track.

 

4/ Since you have effectively doubled each note, switch off that Master Track so that the notes dont sound - you can then have it as a reference track and print it as a separate part if you need to.

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