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Logic Pro X automation is VERY INACCURATE.


Mimieux

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The automation in Logic Pro X is extraordinarily inaccurate. In fact, the automation has been inaccurate in many previous versions of Logic, yet Apple's development team have done nothing about it.

 

Refer to the example and images below.

 

I loaded a synth plug-in and inserted Logic's Gain plug-in on the synth's channel strip. The synth generated a continuous saw wave, and I automated the gain plug-in to change the level of the saw wave over time. Look at the shape of the automation vs. the shape of the audio (after I bounced the synth track to audio)—the shapes are completely different, but they shouldn't be. The shape of the audio's waveform should match the shape of the automation on the original track. Also, the timing of the level changes in the audio is different to the timing of the automation points, but the timing of these two things should be exactly the same.

 

(Please note: I've switched-on sample accurate automation for volume, pan, sends, plug-in parameters within Logic's Preferences, and this problem is repeatable with all plug-ins, irrespective of whether the plug-ins are stock or third-party.)

 

Who can create a polished, professional mix without accurate automation?

 

The more users that report this issue to Apple's development team, the greater the likelihood that the team will fix the issue. If you want accurate automation (not a lot to ask, is it?), please submit feedback to Apple's development team for Logic Pro X: https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html

 

1640982987_LPXAutomation1.thumb.png.5fe3ff0865469741e81d5cedfc6226e2.png

 

1416920124_LPXAutomation2.thumb.png.3b51fa7392376cdcf76ff802d96ad54f.png

Edited by Mimieux
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isn't the audio a fixed thing, whatever you've recorded? the automation writes events (volume changes, mutes, etc etc) but the file itself doesn't of course change. i've been doing mixes in logic since 2009, with lots of automation, and am pretty damn happy...

I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing :). Can you explain what you mean by "isn't the audio a fixed thing"?

 

Besides, have you tried running your test with a (Logic) native plugin, with a dry sine wave patch and an "on/off switch-style" envelope (organ)?

Also to be aware of, among other things, is the ramp time setting...

I get the same results if I use only native plug-ins, and the automation curves are never accurate, irrespective of the envelope of a sound. I encourage you to test this yourself :).

 

What ramp time setting are you referring to?

Edited by Mimieux
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...

What ramp time setting are your referring to?

The one in the Automation preferences...

BTW, Snap offset will also affect the outcome.

Here's another test.

 

I changed the Ramp Time from 200 ms to 0 ms (my Snap Offset is set at 0 ticks already), and I used Logic's ES2 to generate a sine wave with a very short release time. I inserted Logic's Gain plug-in and automated the level of the sine wave over time. Again, the shape of the automation in the audio looks nothing like the original automation.

 

393168976_LPXAutomation3.thumb.png.3ef07df6f5b245f7fb526a2dd119da40.png

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the audio is a fixed thing, the automation is not changing it, just changing it's relationship to whatever parameter you're automating. like a sound isrecorded at -2db, but the automation turns it down to -10db; the waveform won't change, just the fader's level.

Yeah, we're not talking about the same thing :).

 

you're aware that there are a lot of logic users out there, and many have worked with it for years; and many released songs have been mixed in logic, using automation. so, something must be working right...

Many users have worked around it. The automation is certainly not working right in any way. If you want sounds to fit snuggly together, or you want to automate the timbre of sounds, you have to unnecessarily waste time tinkering with automation until you achieve the result you're after. Professionals that provide services to clients can't take a careless approach to these kinds of tasks, or afford the wasted time. Logic's automation is technically deficient and it kills workflow.

 

There are plenty of professionals and artists who've moved to Live and Studio One because of this very problem :).

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the audio is a fixed thing, the automation is not changing it, just changing it's relationship to whatever parameter you're automating. like a sound isrecorded at -2db, but the automation turns it down to -10db; the waveform won't change, just the fader's level.

Yeah, we're not talking about the same thing :).

 

you're aware that there are a lot of logic users out there, and many have worked with it for years; and many released songs have been mixed in logic, using automation. so, something must be working right...

Many users have worked around it. The automation is certainly not working right in any way. If you want sounds to fit snuggly together, or you want to automate the timbre of sounds, you have to unnecessarily waste time tinkering with automation until you achieve the result you're after. Professionals that provide services to clients can't take a careless approach to these kinds of tasks, or afford the wasted time. Logic's automation is technically deficient and it kills workflow.

 

There are plenty of professionals and artists who've moved to Live and Studio One because of this very problem :).

 

how many exactly?

 

there are plenty of professionals who mix in logic now. what's your point exactly? i use it, i don't work around it. and this is my career, not a hobby (as is true for my production collab, also on logic X). as is true for many on this forum.

 

not sure what you're expecting here, since this is a forum of logic users, and we're all using automation.

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...confused as well...the wave/gain envelope of the "source" stem is not affected...the output of the channel processing the "source" wave should show the envelope of the automation affecting it...are you showing/saying that is not the case?...wasn't sure from the images.../s~

Yeah, that's right :).

 

The output (i.e. the audio that I bounced) should show a waveform that follows the envelope of the automation that's controlling the Gain plug-in. The Gain plug-in is automated to attenuate or amplify the level of the synth over time, so if I were to bounce the synth to audio, I would expect the waveform of the synth to attenuate or amplify at the exact times and in the exact ways that I specified in the automation. For example, if I automated the Gain plug-in to attenuate the synth from 0.0 dB to -96 dB in a linear way from the time 01:00:01.000 to the time 01:00:004.000, I would expect to see this exact attenuation in waveform when I bounce the synth to audio. However, when I bounce the synth to audio, I don't see that behaviour at all. Instead, I see that the Gain plug-in has begun to attenuate the synth too early or too late, and the shape of the attenuation is not linear, but instead exponential. So why did I bother adding automation points at the precise moments in time that I wanted them, and why did I bother using a linear shape for my automation curve? Logic isn't obeying the instructions set out by my automation, it's doing something different instead.

 

The images that I've posted in this thread show the output (i.e. the waveform of the audio that I bounced) doesn't follow the timing or the envelope of the automation that I recorded for the Gain plug-in, which means that the automation we see in Logic Pro X doesn't visually represent the actual automation that we hear or get when we bounce an track containing automation to audio. We instruct Logic to do something in a specific way and it chooses to do something completely different. If you look at the images again, you'll notice that the timing (more subtle) and the shape of the automation that's controlling the Gain plug-in is not accurately incorporated into the audio when I bounce the synth to audio. No other DAW that I use does this (Live and Studio One), and I know Reaper doesn't do it either. I assume no other DAW does this, because no DAW should do this.

 

Logic's (grossly) inaccurate automation can make simple tasks much more time consuming or much more complicated than they should be. I would expect that the automation I draw will affect the audio in precisely the way I've drawn it, but it doesn't, and that's completely illogical.

Edited by Mimieux
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i'll stay out of this from now on, apologies. not looking for an argument, just confused about the purpose of the thread.

 

others can wade in (if they dare)... 8-)

I'm not looking for an argument either :) (my posts are filled with smiley faces).

 

Perhaps my previous post explains my original post a little more clearly?

 

Logic's automation doesn't work properly. You instruct it to do one thing and it does something different. It'd be nice if Apple fixed it, but their Logic Pro X development team haven't done anything to date. The purpose of this thread is to (1) bring the issue to the attention of users, and (2) encourage them to submit feedback to Apple's development team so the team fixes the issue. :)

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"Logic Pro X automation is VERY INACCURATE."

 

I disagree. My test below shows the timing is accurate.

aWyZ8pZ.png

 

I think you're misunderstanding the discrepancy in the shapes. The automation is controlling the linear motion of the fader, which itself is a logarithmic scale. So, the bounced output shows a logarithmic curve, derived from the linear motion of the fader.

 

Edit: I've tried two different image hosts, but still the image doesn't show. :?

Edit 2: Broken image link fixed.

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I think you're misunderstanding the discrepancy in the shapes. The automation is controlling the linear motion of the fader, which itself is a logarithmic scale. So, the bounced output shows a logarithmic curve, derived from the linear motion of the fader.

Thanks Tankfield, that's an interesting point that I hadn't considered. When you refer to the fader as a logarithmic scale, do you mean the scale of the fader itself, or loudness in general? (I ask only because the scale of my faders is set to Section dB-linear, and I used a Gain plug-in, not a channel strip fader.)

 

If you're right, why don't fades in Logic Pro X behave the same way? If I fade-in or fade-out a sound with a linear envelope the sound fades in a linear way. Why wouldn't Logic Pro X exhibit the same behaviour for automation? (I can think of possible explanations, but it seems like a valid question.)

 

Also, if you're right, two other issues remain unsolved:

1. The discrepancy between the timing of an automation point and the timing of the corresponding change in audio (the timing of these two events is often misaligned—sometimes abysmally).

2. The fact that sometimes the audio won't return to 0.0 dB even if the automation instructs it to do so.

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Hey!

 

The "issue" here is that you are automating the Gain plugin and here's why: small changes in the Gain plugin's automation, create HUGE changes in the sound. Try it and you will see. The same shape using a Gain plugin's automation lane vs the normal Volume's automation lane, will give you different results. That's why the shape of your audio is different (in same cases, at least), because a "small" slope will pretty much bring your volume all the way down to -20dB, while the same small slope using the Volume automation will bring it to -3dB.

 

Does it make sense? :)

 

That is one of the reasons I kinda hate using automation on the gain plugin. You have to zoom in like crazy in order to make like a 3dB automation movement.

 

Hope it helps a little bit ;)

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"Logic Pro X automation is VERY INACCURATE."

 

I disagree. My test below shows the timing is accurate.

aWyZ8pZ.png

 

I think you're misunderstanding the discrepancy in the shapes. The automation is controlling the linear motion of the fader, which itself is a logarithmic scale. So, the bounced output shows a logarithmic curve, derived from the linear motion of the fader.

 

Edit: I've tried two different image hosts, but still the image doesn't show. :?

Edit 2: Broken image link fixed.

 

Hey, that's a lot of big words. Could you explain for us simple folk :)

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Hey!

 

The "issue" here is that you are automating the Gain plugin and here's why: small changes in the Gain plugin's automation, create HUGE changes in the sound. Try it and you will see. The same shape using a Gain plugin's automation lane vs the normal Volume's automation lane, will give you different results. That's why the shape of your audio is different (in same cases, at least), because a "small" slope will pretty much bring your volume all the way down to -20dB, while the same small slope using the Volume automation will bring it to -3dB.

 

Does it make sense? :)

 

That is one of the reasons I kinda hate using automation on the gain plugin. You have to zoom in like crazy in order to make like a 3dB automation movement.

 

Hope it helps a little bit ;)

 

I hadn't thought of this before, thanks!

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Hey!

 

The "issue" here is that you are automating the Gain plugin and here's why: small changes in the Gain plugin's automation, create HUGE changes in the sound. Try it and you will see. The same shape using a Gain plugin's automation lane vs the normal Volume's automation lane, will give you different results. That's why the shape of your audio is different (in same cases, at least), because a "small" slope will pretty much bring your volume all the way down to -20dB, while the same small slope using the Volume automation will bring it to -3dB.

 

Does it make sense? :)

 

That is one of the reasons I kinda hate using automation on the gain plugin. You have to zoom in like crazy in order to make like a 3dB automation movement.

 

Hope it helps a little bit ;)

Thanks 3ple :). Your post makes sense, and sure enough the Gain plug-in performs worse than a fader, but Logic's automation issues still affect the fader (although to a lesser degree).

 

After reading your post, I compared the output of an automated fader to the output of an automated Gain plug-in (refer to image below—fader is the first and second tracks, Gain plug-in is the third and fourth tracks). The fader produced different results (and more accurate results) when compared to the Gain plug-in (just like you said), which is really weird. I made sure that all automation points for both plug-ins used the same values. Note, the 'depth' of the automation for the Gain plug-in looks shallower than the 'depth' of the automation for the fader because Logic scales values on the y-axis differently for the two parameters—maybe the different scales are something to do with the fader attenuating audio to -140 dB and the Gain plug-in attenuating audio to -96 dB.

 

The waveform created by the automated fader closely matches the shape of the original automation, however linear changes still aren't linear (although they are far more accurate than the "linear" changes produced by the Gain plug-in). The timing of the changes in the waveform still don't align to the timing of the original automation points, however that's not obvious in the image below because I've zoomed-out too far.

 

We still need the development team to address all of these issues (e.g. inaccurate timing, inaccurate automation curves, big differences between plug-ins/between a Gain plug-in and a fader).

 

Again, I encourage readers to submit feedback to Apple's development team asking that these issues be fixed: https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html

 

1455347310_LPXAutomation4.thumb.png.e47a231293d19a732c6998655b83b897.png

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You're welcome! :)

Yes, the Gain plugin definitely produces a different shape. See the image I'm attaching. This is an automation I created today. You will see that it produces a different curve on both the Volume and the Gain plugin.

As much as this can be a bug (maybe Apple has a magical reason for that to work that way lol), my suggestion is to stay away from automating the Gain and just automate the Volume fader and then if necessary adjust the overall volume using the Trim option or add a Gain plugin at the end of your chain and raise/lower the overall volume. And if you don't want to use the Gain or the Volume, try using the EQ and automate the master volume there (the only problem with the EQ is that you only have 24dBs to work with, but sometimes it's more than enough, depending on what you're trying to do).

At the end of the day, I just use my ears and if it sounds good, I don't really worry much about the shape. I adjust the automation until it sounds good to me.

I will, though, send my feedback mentioning this and even suggesting that they change the scale of that automation (Gain), because it's really hard to work with that.

 

342015048_ScreenShot2018-08-27at11_49_11AM.png.996e3903608d51998926e95e6ef42e70.png

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You're welcome! :)

Yes, the Gain plugin definitely produces a different shape. See the image I'm attaching. This is an automation I created today. You will see that it produces a different curve on both the Volume and the Gain plugin.

As much as this can be a bug (maybe Apple has a magical reason for that to work that way lol), my suggestion is to stay away from automating the Gain and just automate the Volume fader and then if necessary adjust the overall volume using the Trim option or add a Gain plugin at the end of your chain and raise/lower the overall volume. And if you don't want to use the Gain or the Volume, try using the EQ and automate the master volume there (the only problem with the EQ is that you only have 24dBs to work with, but sometimes it's more than enough, depending on what you're trying to do).

At the end of the day, I just use my ears and if it sounds good, I don't really worry much about the shape. I adjust the automation until it sounds good to me.

I will, though, send my feedback mentioning this and even suggesting that they change the scale of that automation (Gain), because it's really hard to work with that.

 

That's super weird! I've never noticed that bug before (I've never automated faders myself).

 

I agree with the sentiment that users should generally adjust automation by ear, but some tasks (e.g. matching the envelopes of multiple sounds or creating inverse envelopes) are a lot easier if the automation points and the automation curves accurately represent what Logic is going to do and when it's going to do it. I used oscilloscopes to get around the automation issues in the past (while hoping and waiting for a fix), but nothing happened, so I gave up on Logic for mixing. All of the automation issues are shitty and unnecessary.

 

I would love to return to Logic for mixing, but I really need reliable automation for my workflow.

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The automation in Logic Pro X is extraordinarily inaccurate. In fact, the automation has been inaccurate in many previous versions of Logic, yet Apple's development team have done nothing about it.

 

Refer to the example and images below.

 

I loaded a synth plug-in and inserted Logic's Gain plug-in on the synth's channel strip. The synth generated a continuous saw wave, and I automated the gain plug-in to change the level of the saw wave over time. Look at the shape of the automation vs. the shape of the audio (after I bounced the synth track to audio)—the shapes are completely different, but they shouldn't be. The shape of the audio's waveform should match the shape of the automation on the original track. Also, the timing of the level changes in the audio is different to the timing of the automation points, but the timing of these two things should be exactly the same.

 

(Please note: I've switched-on sample accurate automation for volume, pan, sends, plug-in parameters within Logic's Preferences, and this problem is repeatable with all plug-ins, irrespective of whether the plug-ins are stock or third-party.)

 

Who can create a polished, professional mix without accurate automation?

 

The more users that report this issue to Apple's development team, the greater the likelihood that the team will fix the issue. If you want accurate automation (not a lot to ask, is it?), please submit feedback to Apple's development team for Logic Pro X: https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html

 

LPX Automation 1.png

 

LPX Automation 2.png

 

I send a similar report to them quarterly.. They even responded once and said they had never heard of it before so could I give more info.. I gave multiple use examples including video and then never ever heard from them again.

 

It's usually to do with latency on track inserts.. So if there is a plugin *anywhere* in the chain of an audio track or instrument track insert, that has latency, automation of any plugin parameter will be out by that latency.. The workaround is busses where it doesn't happen.. It doesn't happen on drummer tracks as they are using busses to begin with.

 

Other than that, there are some automation timing inconsistencies indeed.. Some things are improved by turning OFF sample accurate automation, but overall i have worked out it is much better to have it on for everything.

 

I KNOW apple can fix this, as they already made massive changes to the PDC engine, remember before like 10.3 or maybe it was 10.2, that if there was latent plugins on busses, Logic's playhead would be out of time with the audio?

 

They fixed that.. There used to be a workaround for track inserts, to insert any plugins with latency after the plugin you want to automate, but it doesn't matter now, it's broken in any order, which changed at the same time they fixed visual compensation, so it's all inter related.

 

They can definitely fix it though, or simply add an automation compensation box in the inspector per track.. since logic displays plugin latency when you hover the cursor over the plugin insert name, we could put that figure in and logic would adjust automation.. that way we could draw it bang on the grid and still use any latent plugins we wanted..

 

right now, the best workaround is to mirror a track with it's own bus, stack them and do critical automation on the bus.

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the audio is a fixed thing, the automation is not changing it, just changing it's relationship to whatever parameter you're automating. like a sound isrecorded at -2db, but the automation turns it down to -10db; the waveform won't change, just the fader's level.

Yeah, we're not talking about the same thing :).

 

you're aware that there are a lot of logic users out there, and many have worked with it for years; and many released songs have been mixed in logic, using automation. so, something must be working right...

Many users have worked around it. The automation is certainly not working right in any way. If you want sounds to fit snuggly together, or you want to automate the timbre of sounds, you have to unnecessarily waste time tinkering with automation until you achieve the result you're after. Professionals that provide services to clients can't take a careless approach to these kinds of tasks, or afford the wasted time. Logic's automation is technically deficient and it kills workflow.

 

There are plenty of professionals and artists who've moved to Live and Studio One because of this very problem :).

 

you were spot on till you said Live..

 

Live's ADC is horrendous and until live 9.1 automation was all over the place timing wise..it was worse than Logic and there was no workaround other than manually shifting.. they fixed it to a degree, but it's still out visually and time based effects can't be used in latent signal paths or it goes haywire.

 

pro tools and S1 are spot on.. S1 seems even spot on to the sample.. they broke it temporarily when they first released their hybrid engine in 3.5, automation was literally playing a bar early in some cases, but it seems fixed again.

 

Cubase is overall pretty good.. just a few ticks out here and there...

 

But yes, with Logic you have to work around it if you want right automation timing. it's very frustrating with grid based music when you want rhythmic automation FX.

 

Apple were genuinely not aware of it according to the email they sent me.. Maybe since it has been so silent since 10.4.1, they are spending time to fix all these bugbears?

 

One can hope.

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"Logic Pro X automation is VERY INACCURATE."

 

I disagree. My test below shows the timing is accurate.

aWyZ8pZ.png

 

I think you're misunderstanding the discrepancy in the shapes. The automation is controlling the linear motion of the fader, which itself is a logarithmic scale. So, the bounced output shows a logarithmic curve, derived from the linear motion of the fader.

 

Edit: I've tried two different image hosts, but still the image doesn't show. :?

Edit 2: Broken image link fixed.

 

now do the same thing with a plugin automation (not a volume or pan envelope), when you have a plugin with noticeable latency anywhere in the insert path of that track, and tell me again :)

 

For example, put an ad limiter with 50ms lookahead or a linear phase EQ, then automate the volume of any other plugin that sits before or after that latent plugin. On an audio track or output 1-2 of an instrument track. It will be out of time, every time. ;) This is with sample accurate for everything checked.

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I wonder if the automation timing issue could be (to some extent) related to latency compensation algorythms?

 

Well.. yes and no.. It's actually quite simple.. Logic is not informing automation that there is latency in the signal path and that it needs to shift by that latency (backwards). That's all it is in a nutshell. The PDC algorithms themselves are absolutely fine.. Logic can now handle on the fly latency changes within a plugin, most situation of sidechain latency are compensated bar one ( i have to check again which one fails, it's either if you put fx with latency before or after the plugin being fed a sidechain).. But even cubase fails here.. If a plugin itself has latency and you feed THAT plugin a sidechain signal, it's out of time by that plugin's latency. Logic doesn't do this.. The main plugin receiving the sidechain can have latency. So in this one scenario for PDC, logic wins IMO.

Logic also displays delay per plugin as it is at that time, pretty much like pro tools except in Logic you need to hover the cursor over the plugin name, Cubase does not.. You never know what your latency in a plugin chain is in Cubase on the spot.

So everything has an advantage and disadvantage. The one thing Apple could do is speed up 'response' time when there are latency changes, and sometimes it's not on the fly, you have to stop and start playback for it to sync properly. No biggie.

Basically, just like ableton did in Live 9.1, Apple need to code an update that informs the automation, "hey, there is (for example) 1572 samples latency in this insert chain, move automation back 1572 samples". Or they could do it in MS whatever is better for them.

it's not arbitrary to code, but at the same time, a team as talented as the logic one could knock it out in a week for sure. They just don't want to for some reason.

 

perhaps they are worried they will break everyone's legacy projects where people have manually moved automation themselves.. This is why I suggested to Apple to have a legacy automation checkbox added to project settings, so people could choose that for their legacy projects.

 

But yeah, i never heard from them again :(

 

And i was SO nice about it and took the time to make detailed videos and so on.. Oh well :(

 

All i know is, that plugins on busses automate bang on time, as long as sample accurate "for everything" option is checked. So that IS a workaround.. mirror a track with it's own bus and problem solved.. You can still route multiple busses to further busses for sub mixing groups.. so it's just a bit of extra work.. If it wasn't for folder stacks it would be a nightmare but it's fairly easy to keep it neat with stacks.

 

Finally, there is the manual option. Draw your automation where you want it to happen, count any plugin latency in you track inserts, and move it left by that amount. I can't even remember anymore if Logic can move in samples or milliseconds...

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That is very interesting about the bus/aux route causing the automation to be bang on time.

 

LPX seems to still have some bugs in PDC. Another area it doesn't work right is when using external midi. If you have latent plugins on AUX or OUTPUT channels, then all other tracks are supposed to be delayed also for PDC purposes, but the metronome is not delayed appropriate if a metronome-as-midi is used. Also, external midi tracks, aren't delayed properly...so when you record midi to the external midi track, while an AUX channel has latency, then the midi events will be recorded to the track early, etc.. pretty annoying. Apple also sent me email about this after I filed a bug and I sent them info and never heard another word from them about it.

 

I will make the following points about how PDC is supposed to work:

 

  1. If you have latent plugins on INST or AUDIO channels, then any midi or audio regions being fed into them are supposed to be fed into them slightly early so that latency will be compensated
  2. if you have latent plugins on AUX our OUTPUT channels, then all other channels are supposed to be delayed by the same amount for purposes of PDC

 

In the case of automation, it seems that like external midi, they didn't take something into consideration quite right about how and when to delay the automation events from happening when they should. It sounds to me like when the plugins are on the inst channel itself, then automation is not being delayed along with the actual audio. The interesting thing is that some kind of automation might need to be delayed and other types of automation, such as midi automation, might need to remain at the same time as midi events, figuring that the actual instrument is going to add the latency. So its not entirely cut and dried which kinds of automation should be delayed for PDC, and which automation should not be delayed, because it needs to be in time with the midi. ...I guess they could figure this out so its seamless and perfect for each plugin in a chain of plugins, and which thing is being automated, but it may not be that simple.

 

when you send the audio from the instrument or source audio track to a bus and put latent plugins on the bus, then according to the above PDC rules, all other tracks or channels are delayed to match it...and somehow this causes the automation points to be where you want them. Are you putting the automation points on a track associated with the aux bus or on the source track? Are the latent plugins on the source track/channel or aux channel? Somehow you are exploiting the way AUX channel PDC works to get the automation to be delayed to match the audio, but I think it may depend on a few factors, would like to get more info about that.

 

Agreed that LPX PDC has some issues, I think related to both external midi and automation, that Apple did not take into consideration when developing the PDC engine. They need to clean that up.

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Very glad you warned me about external midi tracks, cause I was considering selling all my UAD Apollo stuff and going completely native.. I run at least 32 inputs of external midi at all times (I use about 80 inputs total but average project would use around 32 various ones).. I thought since logic seems the only daw that can handle a large input monitoring count at 32 buffer but with effects, that it would be worth it to have it all in the native domain and total recall without extra console monitoring apps.. But if PDC is wonky here, then forget it.. This is one area of logic I have never tried.. I have always used DSP to do it (or analog). Even in 2001 when we had 3 pro tools mix cards, we used Logic as a front end, as Logic did DAE in those days but all the monitoring was done on the DSP. Thanks for your info.
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... I automated the gain plug-in...

 

I've always thought of the gain plugin as kind of like the preamp gain on an analog or digital mixer. In a hardware mixer world, you pretty much never mix by turning the gain knob. They don't have the resolution that a 100mm fader does. And my personal experience is that adjusting the gain on a hardware mixer can introduce audio artifacts that are not introduced by manipulating the fader. This is also how I mix in Logic. I use the gain plugin as a "set and forget" if I need to adjust the "input" level of the channel strip, then I mix with fader automation. It really hasn't every occurred to me to try automating a gain plugin...

 

I also haven't ever compared the automation curve to any bounced mix. I just create my automation to please my ears and then bounce the mix. The results seem the same bounce after bounce, at least to my ears, so at least it's consistent. Anyway, that has been my experience. I don't get as complicated with my workflow as some of you, apparently. I do a lot of multitrack audio mixing to video, but don't use outboard MIDI gear or automation on plugins to achieve a particular effect. And I haven't yet used latent plugins or latent sidechain applications that have caused me problems with Logic's PDC issues.

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