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Future of Logic/ ARM based MACS/ universal apps/ Logic on iPad pros?


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Lots of speculation on ARM based Macs in the future and INTEL ‘confirms the move as in the news today. What do you think about Logic’s future?

Would they have to re write the software?

Logic on future iPad pros? Thoughts?

 

If it means Apple not having to rely on Intel's roadmap and having complete control over the design, they will definitely do it.

 

I'm still convinced that everything is gonna become iOS anyway, with the operating system recognizing the hardware and installing what's necessary. Very A.I.-like.

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I find myself very creative on the ipad/garageband. It’s the freedom. Instant access/capture idea. Currently not able to finish projects on the ipad due to limitations of the software. Would really like an ipad pro with logic x and enough memory.
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Lots of speculation on ARM based Macs in the future and INTEL ‘confirms the move as in the news today. What do you think about Logic’s future?

Would they have to re write the software?

Logic on future iPad pros? Thoughts?

 

If it means Apple not having to rely on Intel's roadmap and having complete control over the design, they will definitely do it.

 

I'm still convinced that everything is gonna become iOS anyway, with the operating system recognizing the hardware and installing what's necessary. Very A.I.-like.

 

I think you are right. If they port Logic and Final cut to the ipad, they would essentially kill the Mac line.

Logic is the only reason i have a Mac.

Other people may use it to write maybe. And Final cut. These days not too many people would buy a 3000$ machine to facebook or check the weather..

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iPad Pro is not a viable alternative for a fully fledged workstation.

iPad Pro is nice, of course, but editing with fingers is terrible, Stylus, maybe, but no DAW really supports Apple Pencil yet.

Then all the crap you need to connect on it...

 

If you only use logic on a macbook pro with headphones it seems logical, but any workstation environment, iPad is completely out of the question.

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If it means Apple not having to rely on Intel's roadmap and having complete control over the design, they will definitely do it.

 

I'm still convinced that everything is gonna become iOS anyway, with the operating system recognizing the hardware and installing what's necessary. Very A.I.-like.

 

Yeah,very likely scenario, but not definitely not by 2020 as news proposes the ARM switch.. :)

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iPad Pro is not a viable alternative for a fully fledged workstation.

 

Question is, can IOS be suitable for a Mac Pro/Mac Mini/Macbook to run? In regards to ARM processors, The groundwork is all there, and is delivering near-pro quality apps on a tablet format. If you add keyboard/mouse support and better screen configurations... Then, well, quite a change from the conventional.... Not sure how i feel about it.

 

The trouble i see from a user point of view is a complete lock down in regards to how we can store and manage files on desktop machines, which Apple will herald as being more 'secure' and pushing us more through iCloud methods.

 

As for a Logic rewrite as per OP question, it will be fine as it runs within a framework, just like most apps. It wouldn't surprise me if they have something running already. I think Triplets could be right here, the more i think about it, the more it makes sense from Apple's viewpoint. Would kill Hackintosh too, i'm presuming that's quite an annoyance for Apple.

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Yeah,very likely scenario, but not definitely not by 2020 as news proposes the ARM switch..

 

Obviously not soon, but the same way they had the Intel platform working behind curtains, they're going to make iOS the only operating system.

Now with iPhones and iPads they're creating familiarity all over the world.

Once you get used to the interaction with iOS for everything you do, the hardware doesn't matter anymore. And if Apple controls all the chip designs, no need for Intel anymore.

 

The trouble i see from a user point of view is a complete lock down in regards to how we can store and manage files on desktop machines, which Apple will herald as being more 'secure' and pushing us more through iCloud methods.

 

If they get Airdrop to work seamlessly, you won't need any ports on the hardware.

It just freaks me out to be in a world with no cables anymore.

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Reading all this, I realize that I'm in a race against Apple. I'm finding myself actively fighting for my options to professionally use Logic the way I want, on multiple, big screens, with a powerful computer, with audio Interfaces which I find suitable, recording files to where I think they should go, backup options that fit my needs, etc. etc.

Apple on the other hand seem determined to remove every single one of these points one by one until one day they finally move on to ilLogic on the iPhone. By then, I seriously hope I have retired from anything music related.

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I just had a quick google on the current iPad Pro CPU's, they're pretty powerful aren't they. I didn't realise they were returning similar benchmark figures as i7 chips (Albeit somewhat older).

 

I wonder how pricing will be when this all comes to fruition. Mad to think that soon a tablet device could potentially have more raw CPU power than the best Mac Pro available.

 

We may even reach a time where devices are so small they become modular in regard to CPU power.

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Reading all this, I realize that I'm in a race against Apple. I'm finding myself actively fighting for my options to professionally use Logic the way I want, on multiple, big screens, with a powerful computer, with audio Interfaces which I find suitable, recording files to where I think they should go, backup options that fit my needs, etc. etc.

Apple on the other hand seem determined to remove every single one of these points one by one until one day they finally move on to ilLogic on the iPhone. By then, I seriously hope I have retired from anything music related.

 

I second every single of these statements.

 

Given Apples latest moves (regarding both their computers and the sequencer we all love), there seems to be no more bright future for me and Logic. Their hardware will be extremely limited or horrendously expensive (I think the new proposed "modular" Mac Pro will start at around 4k - and that might be a very optimistic estimation already) and their software will still be bug city as they don't need to make money of it but rather try to squeeze it into whatever "corporate design" boundaries (just what's already happening with Logic).

None of this follows my wish of having an idea about how to "deal" with music (practice, teach, compose, arrange and do whatever things) and build a suitable environment around that idea. My current Mac Pro does, my old Macbook did as well. They're 9 and 11 years old. And not a single item in Apples current portfolio would be able to replace them without driving me completely mad. How can that be? I'm not into anything esoteric. All I want is a "personal" computer deserving the name. Not some horrible lifestyle gadget designed for people with way too much money on their hands.

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That's what bugs me too Sascha, it's this notion that i feel 'odd' for what i feel are very basic requirements to do my work. I don't crave anything wild. In fact, i have what i need in my hands at this moment! BUT, it will soon stop receiving security/os/software updates. Not such a big issue if i was working solitary, but i work within a network.

 

Anyway, I caved this weekend and ordered a secondhand i7 Win 10 machine.. I don't know what happens with it, as i hate it already and it's not even arrived! ...I have never felt so un-excited about a piece of hardware.

 

But, unless i experience life on the other side (i.e. fully windows workflow), i can't really make an educated decision on what i do in regards to moving forward with Mac. For me to upgrade both Mac Book Pro and Mac Pro this year (which is what i planned), then i'm probably looking at 7k GBP ($9k) - so i need to make sure i'm not just walking in to that investment through blind faith.

 

It actually makes me feel like crying with frustration, Mac is so much to me - 60+ hours/weeks i spend with it - more than any member of my family, or colleagues, my entire workflow fits around it. So yeah, i probably sound like a big whiney baby, but hey, my work environment directly affects my livelihood - and this is now playing on my mind pretty much 24/7.

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I think there is still time to buy a new Mac for me because i need one. Logic will probably appear on ipads in the future which i am personally waiting for. I am more of a musician/composer than a recording engineer. They will cater for both worlds in the next 5 years for sure.
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Anyway, I caved this weekend and ordered a secondhand i7 Win 10 machine.. I don't know what happens with it, as i hate it already and it's not even arrived! ...I have never felt so un-excited about a piece of hardware.

 

As you love OSX (which I at least partially do as well - which, btw, is kinda strange as I almost hated it when I switched over in 2007), you will not love Windows. It's bloated. There's ways to make the experience a little better, but don't expect anything as slick as OSX. It may even have some slight advances here and there (for example, a firewall also caring about outgoing connections, something the OSX firewall doesn't do), but in a nutshell, it's no pleasure from the OS side of things (I'm maintaining my wifes Win10, so I pretty much know what I'm talking about).

What I'd recommend is to configure the start menu, the task bar and Explorer in a way you can deal with. It makes a lot of sense to get used to the way Explorer works instead of permanently comparing it to Finder (I did it vice versa and Finder only started to grow on me once I stopped comparing it to Explorer). I also recommend to be quite careful with whatever installations you do. Things have gotten vastly better in Windows land, especially with Win10, but it's still that quite some programs leave traces in your system when you uninstall them. Removing things from whatever Autostart options isn't as easy as with OSX, either (there's a tool called msconfig that you might want to have a look at, it's a part of Windows, it's showing all Autostart entries).

Once your more or less familiar with these things, I'd try to stay within your software of choice. And get familiar with the slightly different dialogs and keyboard shortcuts.

Once inside whatever software, things aren't much different anymore, really. Oh well, in case you're planning to do audio work, forget about anything even remotely as comfortable as Core Audio. It's simply not there under Windows. For low latency operation you *need* a dedicated ASIO driver and you can usually just use it within one application at once (there's a "hack" kinda driver thing called ASIO4All for those moments when you plan to use, say, the onboard audio device). This is something plenty of Mac folks aren't familiar with and one thing Apple has gotten absolutely right. You will likely hate the Windows way of dealing with these things. For good reasons. But once you got adjusted to it, it's not as bad as it might seem at first glance. Still something that Microsoft could (and possibly should) get sorted one day.

 

It actually makes me feel like crying with frustration, Mac is so much to me - 60+ hours/weeks i spend with it - more than any member of my family, or colleagues, my entire workflow fits around it. So yeah, i probably sound like a big whiney baby, but hey, my work environment directly affects my livelihood - and this is now playing on my mind pretty much 24/7.

 

Regarding workflow and such, I wouldn't worry *too* much when it comes to "losing OSX". Seriously, how often is it that you actually deal with things which are OS-related (others than Logic and a few other bits of software that aren't available for Windows)?

Personally, unless I'm checking my download folder and/or sort some samples (or song folders), I hardly ever see any OS things. For these things, Explorer works well enough in order not to become a deal breaker. Everything else is program based. And there's really no huge differences between mail programs, browsers, office stuff and what not (ok, something like Preview doesn't exist for Windows, that's indeed sort of bugging, but well, there's other smart tools which can almost replace it). Personally and fortunately, I'm already using x-platform programs for all that kinda stuff (Thunderbird for mail, Firefox for browsing, Open Office for documents, WaveLab for audio editing, etc.).

 

Having said all that, personally, I will likely buy a nice Win10 convertible computer (Apple doesn't offer any of these anyway and iPads aren't even remotely coming close) somewhen this year and I will obviously install some sequencer (or more than one) on it, too. Bitwig is really starting to look promising these days, especially as it'd be perfectly in line with my plans of using a computer live. Add to this that the money for even a low-spec'ed Macbook would already get me a pretty much smoking Win convertible.

Fwiw, as a kind of preparation, I already started to use less of Logics internal plugins. After all, many of them can be replaced more or less easily. And unlike some of the newer additions (such as Drummer, Drum Machine Designer and the Studio things), most 3rd party offerings are working properly. I'll very likely miss plenty of things, but not getting ripped off anymore will certainly feel good. One day that is.

And because I still try to keep along with Logic as long as possible (at least for the serious sequencing stuff), I'm planning to keep this very Mac Pro up to date as long as possible. I'd suspect this to work for another 2-3 years. After that, I expect Apple to completely drop their support for all non-T2 machines. And even then, I'll likely enjoy some 1-2 more years of a comparatively up to date machine (without 3rd party vendors dropping support as well).

 

Whatever, Apples current fantasies of ruling the world with that stupid T2 thing simply doesn't bode well with me. I don't understand any of the "hooray, finally a thing taking care of harddrive security/encryption" hype at all, either. I never had a problem with that. So far it also doesn't seem to make any sense for the thing to control, say, USB communication. In fact, we just see the opposite happening right now, as some USB interfaces simply don't work properly on T2 machines.

And their fantasies of asking 1680 Euros for a 2TB SSDs have got to be a friggin' joke, especially given that you don't even know what kinda drive they're going to slap in and also given that a very professional 3rd party 2TB/SSD/M.2 only comes in at less than half of that.

For me, they're just taking it too far. Apart from the fact that I'm no rich Starbucks kid, I wouldn't even buy that stuff if I was.

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But, unless i experience life on the other side (i.e. fully windows workflow), i can't really make an educated decision on what i do in regards to moving forward with Mac.

 

Workflow in Windows is awful, disgusting, unintuitive and horrible. Did I miss anything?

Let's not talk about the way it looks, because that's beyond awful.

Just dealing with file management when you're used to OSX is night and day. Or even true plug and play, which you don't have either in Microsoft world.

 

And then there's the constant virus update and scanning crap.

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Well it arrived last night... and... urm... well. They like to crackle don't they! I cannot believe all the settings you need to change to even run 7-8 software instrument tracks without pops and crackles. I've never experienced anything like it.

 

I had to go through each of these steps to get it near useable https://support.novationmusic.com/hc/en-gb/articles/115005429325-Optimising-your-PC-for-audio-on-Windows-10

 

Shocking. But, i'm gonna give it a fair trial. I can't moan about Apple's offerings and pricing without trying an alternative.

...Plus there's always business lease options. :)

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Well it arrived last night... and... urm... well. They like to crackle don't they! I cannot believe all the settings you need to change to even run 7-8 software instrument tracks without pops and crackles. I've never experienced anything like it.

 

Beautiful ain't it?

And Windows people always say "you never do real work on a Mac".

 

Yeah, we don't waste time!

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Well it arrived last night... and... urm... well. They like to crackle don't they! I cannot believe all the settings you need to change to even run 7-8 software instrument tracks without pops and crackles. I've never experienced anything like it.

 

I had to go through each of these steps to get it near useable https://support.novationmusic.com/hc/en-gb/articles/115005429325-Optimising-your-PC-for-audio-on-Windows-10

 

I have no idea what these guys are up to, but apart from disabling automatic updates, none of these things should be required to get things going under Windows. It's really not all that different than under OSX. And fwiw, the last thing that'll help you to get along is unfounded, biased Windows-hate of the Mr. triplets of these world.

If you have a decent audio interface coming with decent drivers, almost each and every Windows machine should allow you to run several tracks of virtual instruments without issues. Tens of thousands of people are doing that every day. In fact, more than those that are using Macs for the same thing.

Is it possibly a tad rougher to get things running? Yes, it is. I already said so. Is there more room for potential conflicts? Obviously yes, as Windows isn't running in a closed ecosystem environment.

But once you got past some initial quirks, it's not that different from any other computer (including OSX based ones). Programs work the same. Audio works the same. Files are saved on harddrives. Yes, your documents are saved in different locations. So are your plugins. So are whatever supporting files. But it's no different on OSX, just that it's MS deciding where your files go by default, not Apple. And they both suck every bit as much in terms of dictating several things.

Now, one thing is for certain: If you sit all day, pondering how much better life is with OSX (which I would even agree with, at least partially), you will certainly never get warm with Windows. Has been the same for me when I made the vice versa switch. Once I started to accept OSX as what it is, things went fine. The same is true for Windows. Accept it as being different (and maybe not every bit as comfortable) and you'll get things going. Look at the positive side of things and enjoy those.

 

Whatever, as you didn't specify what machine you've got, what sequencer you're using, etc., it's hard to tell - but once you spend close to the amount of even the smallest Apple offerings, you should be able to get pretty decent performance out of a Windows box.

 

Fwiw, if you plan to do something serious, get informed about some backup software. This is an area where Windows falls short indeed. I don't know what's the latest thing people are using, but I highly recommend getting whatever software along the lines of Acronis True Image or something.

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the last thing that'll help you to get along is unfounded, biased Windows-hate of the Mr. triplets of these world.

 

I have a pc, and doing any kind of troubleshooting, changing settings or dealing with files is horrible and cumbersome. Knowing where Windows puts things? Good luck.

So I might have a strong opinion, so what, but it's not unfounded.

And it's not all that different from OSX? Yeah, right. It is very different. The Finder has nothing in common with Windows Explorer. System Preferences vs Control Panel, night and day. In the end it's another tool, and I don't like it.

 

Ok, couple of sentences is enough talking about Windows. :mrgreen:

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I have no idea what these guys are up to, but apart from disabling automatic updates, none of these things should be required to get things going under Windows. It's really not all that different than under OSX.

 

Well, without setting my power to be always on and speed stepping disabled it was a mess. And i tried 3 different interfaces - all the same. All sorted now, at least. Thanks to that guide.

 

And fwiw, the last thing that'll help you to get along is unfounded, biased Windows-hate of the Mr. triplets of these world.

I think he understands where i'm coming from, i put 50-60 hours/week into MacOS, and i do feel like i've wasted a lot of time doing things i don't usually feel necessary to do with Windows. And then windows decides to just restart when it felt like it when i had a break for lunch.... That tested my patience lol.

 

But once you got past some initial quirks, it's not that different from any other computer (including OSX based ones).

This is what i found, last night i was working till about midnight and i reflected on the day, and i'm really quite happy with it all. Once you're working within the applications, other than silly things like scrolling, having no spaces, and not accidentally closing application windows (As it closes the app in windows) the "Why isn't this a mac?" feeling does alleviate quite a bit.

 

I'm really quite happy with it all in fact, what's strange is that the reported latency is higher than what i'm used to seeing in MacOS. But it doesn't feel higher, and i'm normally quite susceptible to that. The big question is dealing with things like Notes, Keychain Access, even iMessage across devices - i feel that they have me trapped lol. But, If you told me they would be my main concerns after 24 hours i'd have thought you were crazy!

 

Anyway, probably not the thread to be discussing all this as it's personal to me, but appreciate your advice you gave.

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And fwiw, the last thing that'll help you to get along is unfounded, biased Windows-hate of the Mr. triplets of these world.

 

I think he understands where i'm coming from, i put 50-60 hours/week into MacOS, and i do feel like i've wasted a lot of time doing things i don't usually feel necessary to do with Windows. And then windows decides to just restart when it felt like it when i had a break for lunch.... That tested my patience lol.

 

As I said earlier in another reply, in the end it's a tool and right now I can choose which one I use and I choose OSX because I enjoy it and am productive with it. And the other tool that OSX offers is Logic, which I love.

I'm not gonna start pondering switching platforms and use another DAW because of future speculations. That's what I chose.

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Yeah of course it's all down to the individual, and also how much you've invested in particular tools/apps.

 

I've stupidly managed to get myself in a position where both Mac Pro and MacBook Pro need updating. If it were only one piece of hardware outdated, not such a big deal. As it's two machines, it's twice the gamble in regards to cost and concern where the OS is headed.

 

I think where Apple is headed is quite exciting if you like the idea of portability and are happy to commit fully into the apple ecosystem across multiple devices (Which i currently am).

 

Just right now, i'm not happy to financially support their decisions, i don't even feel the target audience anymore, and that's proven in the fact that should i get a new MacBook i have to be prepared to walk around with a thunderbolt drive hanging out of the side if i dare want to take my sample library with me and not pay several thousand more! It sucks man.

 

I only want to match what i can do with a 2012 model and still receive updates so i'm comfortable forwarding files to people and can receive updates to software that i've previously purchased, really not asking for anything spectacular.

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I have a load of different Machines, i have iMac i7 from 2012, *Mac Pro 8 core 2008, *MacBook Pro (13") 2012, Mac Mini i7 Server (2012), and a Mac Mini i5 (2012).

 

But you can see, i've been holding on to those era machines because they're easily upgradeable, and have done what i require so well for years and not until the new Mac Mini's have i seen a machine i'd like to jump to - i replace HDD's in them if they go wrong for example, or increase capacity. But now i'm reading stuff regarding Apple's future, and thunderbolt/usb issues. Fixed drives etc. It's an annoyance.

 

The two main machines are those with the asterisks, which need updating as they're what i earn my money on. The others, iMac is a family computer - not crucial, and the mini's are for testing applications that i write and running servers/VM's. Also have a shop that i run which has 2 Mac's running stock and online activities. I'm riddled with them, and share data across them seamlessly, they've been amazing for me.

 

And no, system overloads not a problem for me at all, maybe with the MP 2008 on audio sometimes, but not major. And the MP could possibly be replaced by a Mac Mini i7 now (A shining light!). But i've done majority of my work on a Mac Pro for so many years i can't get my mind around a self contained box that cannot be upgraded in future as my main workhorse.

 

So, hence why i'm waiting on what the new Mac Pro's offer, how they come in price wise, and just making sure that Windows isn't the best solution for me - because i'm used to buying Mac for longterm investments. I used to do multimedia work for ads/presentations, but i've not made money from audio/video in about 3-4 years now, Logic for me now is something that i can just enjoy and do at my own pace. :)

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the last thing that'll help you to get along is unfounded, biased Windows-hate of the Mr. triplets of these world.

 

I have a pc, and doing any kind of troubleshooting, changing settings or dealing with files is horrible and cumbersome. Knowing where Windows puts things? Good luck.

 

Which kinda troubleshooting for example? Which settings? And which files can't you find?

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And no, system overloads not a problem for me at all, maybe with the MP 2008 on audio sometimes, but not major. And the MP could possibly be replaced by a Mac Mini i7 now (A shining light!). But i've done majority of my work on a Mac Pro for so many years i can't get my mind around a self contained box that cannot be upgraded in future as my main workhorse.

 

You can't stop technology, but there's ways to keep using what you like.

I have an 8-core 2009 MP that I flashed the motherboard on (yes, I hacked it) so I could upgrade the CPUs and now I have 2 faster 6-cores with High Sierra on it and this machine became a monster with a couple hundred bucks put into it.

I'll keep using it as long as I can because it's the best computer Apple ever did.

I have a 15-inch 2012 MBP that I use as a guinea pig for all the updates, and I'm having lots of fun geeking out with it.

 

And because you can't stop technology, the user-upgradable computer is not gonna be the norm in the future, you can be certain of that.

Everything will become throw away/replace hardware.

 

But until that happens, I personally won't try another platform and go thru more troubleshooting because of what the future might bring.

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And because you can't stop technology, the user-upgradable computer is not gonna be the norm in the future, you can be certain of that.

Everything will become throw away/replace hardware.

There's too much business and industry which thrives on selling components to the end used for that to be the norm i feel. Apple want you locking your money into them, maybe. But outside of that i see modern technology enabling modders/enthuasists towards Raspberry PI/Arduino boards, and PC modding is huge too - Where would all that industry go?

 

If Apple are trying to create throw-away products, and slapping boutique price labels on it then they are going to dive head first into the ground. In hindsight i wonder if i'm just dining out on the Steve Jobs era and his legacy is slowly being pissed up the wall, it really dawned on me when i realised how many 2012 machines i'm holding on to.

 

You go throw-away, you cheapen the product by default, not add value to it. I just have this fear that the Mac as we know it will become a purchase very much like an iPhone (i.e. monthly contract). As that model does sell to the mainstream populous - as proven. When you break down the hardware commitment to 24 months and the price as a monthly fee, perspectives change completely.

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Great discussion. The Windows subject came in naturally because i understand that if Logic would go iOS, some people couldn’t deal with it.

It is a little waiting game now. This year we could have more news about the future of Logic.

Maybe the lack of an update this January around NAMM is supporting the change story as well.

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There's too much business and industry which thrives on selling components to the end used for that to be the norm i feel. Apple want you locking your money into them, maybe. But outside of that i see modern technology enabling modders/enthuasists towards Raspberry PI/Arduino boards, and PC modding is huge too - Where would all that industry go?

 

Good point. That industry won't go away because of gaming.

I think though the majority of people want plug and play.

A songwriter doesn't wanna tinker with the correct driver for custom components, a gamer will.

But I never said the change will be soon. It'll take a while. We might have some surprises I believe.

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