What is your Audio FX menu path to Remix FX?

[David Nahmani]

To find Remix FX I click an Audio FX slot and choose Multi-Effects > Remix FX. Some users have mention finding it in the "Specialized" folder instead. Where is your Remix FX located? Thanks!

[des99]

Both.

 

In the "Logic" plugin folder organisation, it is in:

 

Logic -> Multi-Effects > Remix FX

 

However, in the custom folder organisation, where the plugins are in the top level menu, there is a "Specialized" category, and Remix FX is in there.

 

So, you are correct it's in properly available in Multi-Effects, but people who probably don't understand the difference between how things are displayed in the proper Logic Plugins menus, versus the top level menus (which are all custom but have some organisation by default) are just going there and reporting it's in Specialized, probably without even looking down the bottom in the old, "proper" folders down below...

 

So... mystery solved..?

[David Nahmani]

I'm sorry I don't understand what custom folder organization you refer to? Here's my menu:

 

[des99]

Yes, the top level "Specialized" category. For me too.

 

If you are *only* talking about the top level categories, and not where Logic houses the plugins (in "Logic" below "Audio Units"), then I can speculate some possibilities.

 

Has *anyone* reported it's in the top level "Multi Effects" category by default for them?

 

Edit: Ok, wait... I think I know what's going on which would explain this...

[des99]

I may get some specific details of this wrong as I'm going from memory, and I haven't tested it directly, but the principles should broadly apply:

 

Before the top level plugin menu was added, the way to access plugins was to scroll down to the categories, either "Audio Units', which would show third-party plugins, and "Logic" which just shows Logic's own.

 

Then they added the top level menus, and by default stuck all of Logic's plugins in there, as it was more convenient. If there were no third-party plugins installed, you wouldn't even see the "Audio Units" folder. In this case, as all the Logic plugins were up top, they hid the "Logic" folder from below Audio Units to avoid having two sets of Logic plugins displayed, which might be confusing for new users.

 

In your menus, you don't see the Logic folder below Audio Units, because all your Logic stuff is in the system created folders at the top level. I think you'll find if you customise these, remove Logic plugins from these folders, Logic now knows that not all it's plugins are shown in the top menus, so it will now show the "Logic" folder under "Audio Units", which is the way to get at *all* Logic plugins you can't currently get to.

 

And as your stuff is the old system generated stuff, it's listed Remix FX (correctly) in the Multi Effects category which corresponds directly to Logic's Multi Effects folder the plugins are properly listed in.

 

If your top level folders were more custom when you upgraded, you'd probably get Remix put in Specialized, as it has here. But some Logic has not changed your existing top level menus, and Remix FX was not added to Specialized in your case.

[David Nahmani]

I may get some specific details of this wrong as I'm going from memory, and I haven't tested it directly, but the principles should broadly apply:

 

Before the top level plugin menu was added, the way to access plugins was to scroll down to the categories, either "Audio Units', which would show third-party plugins, and "Logic" which just shows Logic's own.

Thanks a lot des99! I have a standard install, no 3rd party plug-ins. As you can see on my screen capture, there is no "Logic" folder. I suppose that folder appears only after you install 3rd party plug-ins.

 

So my Remix FX is in the Multi Effect folder, but I may have reset my plug-in manager, who knows where it was before I reset my plug-in manager.

 

If anyone has a new, standard install of Logic Pro X 10.5 with no 3rd party plug-ins and they've never reset their plug-in manager, I'd love to hear from you?

[des99]

As you can see on my screen capture, there is no "Logic" folder. I suppose that folder appears only after you install 3rd party plug-ins.

 

As I said in my post, I haven't tested this (as my config isn't standard and I don't want to trash it all to test this), but if you start removing plugins/categories from those top-level categories in Plugin Manager (all of which are considered "custom", even though the system creates them for you in a new install), Logic should now show the non-customisable "Logic" category at the bottom for you - otherwise you'd have to way of accessing those plugins you'd removed from your top level folders.

 

If anyone has a new, standard install of Logic Pro X 10.5 with no 3rd party plug-ins and they've never reset their plug-in manager, I'd love to hear from you?

 

I could probably try this in another account... but I'm in the middle of a backup at the moment which will take a few hours to complete. If no one else has, I'll have a look later...

[David Nahmani]

As I said in my post, I haven't tested this (as my config isn't standard and I don't want to trash it all to test this), but if you start removing plugins/categories from those top-level categories in Plugin Manager (all of which are considered "custom", even though the system creates them for you in a new install), Logic should now show the non-customisable "Logic" category at the bottom for you

I'm not experiencing that here? Here's a heavily customized plug-in manager where I've removed tons of plug-ins, all amps etc...:

 

[des99]

Ok - I'll have a play a little later to try to clarify the behaviour.

 

Obviously, I still have the main Audio Units and Logic categories at the bottom here (as it has been since many Logic versions), so it's still a thing

[David Nahmani]

Ok - I'll have a play a little later to try to clarify the behaviour.

 

Obviously, I still have the main Audio Units and Logic categories at the bottom here (as it has been since many Logic versions), so it's still a thing

On my Logic 10.4.8 install with 3rd party Audio Unit installed I still don't see a "Logic" folder.

 

[des99]

On my Logic 10.4.8 install with 3rd party Audio Unit installed I still don't see a "Logic" folder.

 

I've had it since at least Logic 6.x when I moved to the Mac...

That's the standard place all Logic plugins were before they added the top level plugin folders thing as a convenience (and then the plugin manager to let you customise them.)

 

Anyway, like I say, I'll have a look a bit later on and see if we can lock down some of these behaviours...

[David Nahmani]

Thanks a lot for all the help des99. Maybe you have that Logic folder only because you've had older Logic versions installed on your Mac? Maybe your tests will clarify that.

[des99]

So... interesting!

 

Some initial findings:

I ran 10.5.1 in a new test account on my machine (still with root plugs etc, but no logic prefs or any user stuff)

 

- I get the plugin menus as you see in your screenies, Remix FX is in Multi Effects, and there is no Logic menu at bottom.

So what you are seeing seems to be correct and intentional on a default/new installation.

 

- I removed Logic plugins from top level, and the Logic folder does not appear, as you also observed.

 

(I could be remembering wrong, of course, but it's possible the behaviour changed along the way. I definitely have some memories of various behaviours around this in the past, but for now, they aren't so important as they don't really affect the behaviour *now*, which is what we are trying to clarify.)

 

Ok. So I went back to my normal account, removed both Logic prefs files, and the bottom Logic plugin menu is still there. So it's not some legacy preference item still in my prefs that's causing this.

 

In the finder I then removed the tags database, and the Logic folder is now gone from the plugin menus.

 

I had a look in both the MusicApps.properties and .tagpool files, and this doesn't have anything to do with that former Logic folder, it's just the names etc of the top level folders. So it doesn't seem related to those.

 

My current tag pool has more tags than default set - which is to be expected - and some of these presumably are the cause of the old Logic folder showing up. I had a look through a few but couldn't really see any obvious indicators of which tags are preserving this behaviour. It seems to be a system thing though, as you shouldn't be able to "customise" anything outside the top level plugin folders in that menu.

 

So, my guess is either:

- This old Logic folder is deprecated from normal use in some recentish version of LPX, but back in the day when it was still used in the way I remembered it working, plugin manager tags were created which preserves that old behaviour, and Logic still supports that old way.

 

or:-

- Something in my tag database make Logic decide to show that Logic folder, when it normally doesn't anymore

 

And most likely the Multi Effects / Specialised thing might have changed along the way too, where in earlier versions, tags were created if not yet existing to put stuff in Specialized, but now the default is Multi Effects - but if the Specialized tag was already there, Remix FX is put in there instead, which is why some people seem to have it in there on their systems (as per your original query).

 

So - we haven't identified yet what conditions Remix FX is seemingly being put into the Specialized category for some folks (if that's what is happening), but I'm guessing it's caused by some logic based on how to tag the new plugins depending on what people already have in their existing tag database.

 

All this goes to show it's easy to assume how some feature or behaviour that has been entirely normal for many years for you, might be different for other people - which means it's all the more useful to properly describe behaviour you see, and if possible illustrate with screenshots, to get everybody on the same page about what might be happening, in order to help fix problems...

 

For me, my workflow is to put *only* my frequently used plugins close to hand, organised as I need, in the top level plugin menus, and when I occasionally need to dig something unusual out of the cupboard at the back to use, I will go to those bottom Audio Unit or Logic menus to dig out the stuff I don't want cluttering up my view but still want available. This is where *all* the plugins live, rather than just the ones in my customised top level menus. And that has been my workflow ever since the top level plugin menu feature was added (hmm, was it for Logic Studio/LP8? Can't remember...)

 

It seems for new folks with this Logic ("all Logic plugins") folder hidden, the behaviour would be that should I remove some Logic plugins from those top level menus that I don't use to remove unnecessary clutter - if I *did* then want to use them, I'd have to go to the plugin manager, find them, and then re-add them back in to my plugin folders, before I could use them - which seems clearly a backwards step for workflow.

 

So for me, I will for sure be keeping this behaviour until Logic no longer supports it. I guess it would be useful to figure out how to put it back, for those folks who don't have it but want it, so I'll see if I can find the mechanism to do this and if so, add it to this thread...

 

As ever, we continually have to adjust our understanding of behaviours as Logic has many things change over time, so it's always good to revisit and investigate stuff like this - it's a really worthwhile advantage of this forum, imo...

[David Nahmani]

Awesome. Thanks SO much. Very helpful. This is all very humbling. Just when after 20+ years working in Logic you started believing that you kinda understood most of its behaviors. (and when I say "you" I mean myself of course).

[des99]

Ok, I've found the mechanism that governs this:

 

(Backup your ~/Music/Audio Music Apps/Databases/Tags folder first, just in case)

 

Open MusicApps.properties in a text editor.

 

If you don't have the "Logic" folder, you will likely see these preference entries:

 

<key>default_fx</key>
<string>property</string>
<key>default_inst</key>
<string>property</string>
<key>default_midi</key>
<string>property</string>
<key>interface_spec_1</key>
<string>property</string>

 

Delete the "default_" ones, ie, remove the lines:

 

<key>default_fx</key>
<string>property</string>
<key>default_inst</key>
<string>property</string>
<key>default_midi</key>
<string>property</string>

 

but leave this, and everything else, intact:

 

<key>interface_spec_1</key>
<string>property</string>

 

Here, if those "default_" keys are present, the default settings are used and Logic does not display the bottom Logic menu in the relevant plugin menu (instruments, FX, and MIDI plugins).

 

If those keys are removed, it causes the (old-skool!) Logic menu to show up.

 

Give it a try - I'd be interested to see whether it causes this behaviour on your system too, or whether it also requires something else going on with the tags themselves...

 

Edit: I tried this on a fresh config, and it works to re-add the lower Logic menu to the plugin menus.

[David Nahmani]

If those keys are removed, it causes the (old-skool!) Logic menu to show up.

 

Give it a try - I'd be interested to see whether it causes this behaviour on your system too, or whether it also requires something else going on with the tags themselves...

YES! It works here. Fascinating. Thanks for the incredible sleuthing work on that one des!

[des99]

My best guess - they deprecated the menu at the bottom figuring that most users would use the default top level menus provided to them (probably not ever customise them), and then get confused as to why there were two places to open Logic plugins.

 

But as they are generally cool, they did it in such a way that existing users maintained the old behaviour (which has some advantages for more savvy users, imo... )

 

Thanks for the kick to investigate this, it's a useful bit of info to add to the pile...

[David Nahmani]

My best guess - they deprecated the menu at the bottom figuring that most users would use the default top level menus provided to them (probably not ever customise them), and then get confused as to why there were two places to open Logic plugins.

Yes that makes total sense.

 

But as they are generally cool, they did it in such a way that existing users maintained the old behaviour (which has some advantages for more savvy users, imo... )

Yes they often take care of not changing behavior for users who have previously installed earlier versions of Logic...

 

Thanks for the kick to investigate this, it's a useful bit of info to add to the pile...

Yes but mostly thank you for doing all the work, it's good to get to the bottom of this.

[David Nahmani]

So one last thing, perhaps I missed this earlier in this thread... but when you don't have the Logic folder, do you see "Remix FX" in the Multi Effects category like I do?

[des99]

I did mention this at the top of my long post above, but in case you missed it:

 

Yes, it's in Multi Effects, and this is the "proper" place for it, both in the default config, and also in the "Logic" arrangement of the original categories of the plugins in the now "secret" Logic plugin folder.

 

We don't yet know why it's being put in Specialized for some people, but I speculated it was something to do with the condition of people's existing tag database when the new plugin was added in 10.5...

[David Nahmani]

Ok makes sense. Thanks again.

[rAC]

Can I add my thanks to both of you for the analysis and information here.