Help With Controller Strategy

[Djchad72]

I have used Logic Pro X for a while & taken classes at Berklee Music. I have used it mostly for dialog recording and video mix/mastering out of Final Cut Pro X. I used Ableton Live and PUsh 2 for production & composing centric projects. But now I want to focus on Logic Pro X 100% and build an ecosystem around it.

 

I am having a difficult time to pin point how i want to setup the controller hardware around Logic Pro. I am not necessarily tied to everything in one. In fact, I would like a Keyboard Controller that has a big focus on DAW + Plug IN controls for composition / recording. But then would not mind something as simple as a Fader Port to capture automation during mixing/master.

 

I am considering Nektar P6 & Novation SL MKIII. I would consider Akai, but its VIP software still wont support Catalina a year later. So that is not encouraging. The NI Kontrol series I would consider. However seems like they just map to the encoders an endless list of controls to scroll. Nektarine lets you organize the controls into pages & even see a list of controls available from the plug in to drag & drop on to the controls. But then I am dependent on Nektarine to host the plug ins. Similar to Komplete Kontrol. I have Arturia KeyLab MKII 88 and love it for Analog lab. But its MIDI control center is very academic & more like coding.

 

My goal is to find a solution & strategy that will let me set my maps from control to plug ins ONCE and reuse across projects. I am open to using Smart Controls for Logic Pro X as an option, but that could prove to be limiting.

 

Any sharing of your experience of what has worked / not worked for you would be greatly appreciated!

 

Thanks!

Chad

[des99]

I've documented my setup here before but it's non-standard and non-trivial because *nothing* acted the way I wanted it to, so I got deep and dirty to hack up my own custom solution.

 

For me, the closest by far for a powerful, but easy setup is the Mackie Control Universal system, as it's closely designed and integrated into Logic. However, the units are large and not-inexpensive, and if you want to control plugins, like most solutions, each unit only allows direct access to 8 plugin parameters at once (per unit), and for the rest you have to page through them, which gets old very quick, unless you're only dealing with simple low-parameter count audio plugins.

 

There is the C4 unit though, which offers 4x screens/vpots of 8 parameters each, which is much more comfortable (but again adds to the desktop footprint). And, you know, not inexpensive.

 

The benefits of the MCU though is that there is no mapping required - every plugin just presents it's parameters and the controller can access them, and it's one of the few controllers that really lets you control plugins (a lot of controllers just sort of skip that bit). And you don't have to wrap your plugins in other hosts, and it works with all the Logic stuff as well as the third-party plugins.

 

My custom hybrid approach with a small controller is to integrate the MCU-based mixing stuff, and the C4-based plugin stuff, which gives me hands on access to 32-parameters (in instrument or plugin edit mode), or the mixer setup. Then, for instrument plugins, I *reorder* the plugin list for those 32-parameters (it's just a bit of text-file editing), so that I have a consistent parameter layout for all my instrument plugins - the first set of 8 controls is oscillator stuff, the second row is filter stuff, the sliders are amp + filter envelopes and so on.

 

This means whatever plugin I call up, the most important musical parameters are always where I expect them to be under immediate control, and I have 32 of them at once, which is about perfect for me. (I don't need to be able to directly control all of thousands of available parameters on complex plugins - I can do that on screen in the gui if necessary. I *could* get at them from the controller, but you're going to need to do so much paging it makes it imo pointless and gives no workflow advantages).

 

I can do the same for audio plugins too, but in practice, most of the plugins I use and want under finger control aren't that complicated and the parameter layout is pretty straightforward - I haven't seen (so far) the need to make sure my reverbs, comps, EQs and so on are all laid out in a consistent manner - but I could do if I wanted to.

 

I can also switch modes, choose which insert slot I'm controlling, and basically add in any extra custom handling I want (I've implemented things like plugin bypassing, preset inc/dec and some other things too).

 

And while I have a few MCU's I can use in conjunction with this, for the most part my little Novation thing with this setup is the smallest and most useful controller scheme I've ever had. I can freely switch between mixer modes, instrument modes, plugin edit modes, select which insert to control and so on. And if I get a new synth plugin, it takes about five mins to reorder the parameter plist file one time, and from then on it just works as expected.

 

So, really, for mixer stuff, pretty much any decent modern controller will work fine, but where they often fall down is plugin control. What controller will work for you will largely depend on what your needs are for this. My solution is perfect for me, but won't necessarily work for everybody (and it's not straightforward to implement anyway). What you probably need to do is analyse your needs and your plugins and figure out what's important.

 

But whatever the case, manually mapping plugins is just a terrible chore and any solution that requires this is a poor one, imo...

 

Also, don't forget the Logic Control on the iPad, that can work great for many things too (although I like real physical controls).

Edited September 20, 2020 by des99

[des99]

I'm fairly passionate about this topic because I still think controller manufacturers/developers are missing the point, and the space is *wide open* for good, well-designed products in this space.

 

Where are the hardware synth controllers designed for synth plugins? Small hardware units with a standard layout for EQs, compressors, reverbs - the standard tools everyone uses all the time where you can mix and match?

 

It's not a trivial problem to solve, but so far, developers seem to just go "Well, we'll implement a mixer controller as that's easy enough to do, but for plugin control... well, let the user do what they want to do, we'll just kinda not think about it too hard."

 

They'll either skip it completely, or just throw all the plugin parameters at the user, or let the user wade through thousands of parameters per plugin to manually map things... no one seems to be thinking about *how* people want to work with these things, and creating products to solve those problems. Alas... hence my soapboxing..!

 

The reason why my system works for me is because I've thought about my needs, and implemented a solution directly to address them (despite not being able to custom design my preferred hardware controller). And in practice, the hardware becomes less the problem, and the advantage is the workflow gains. There would be even more gains if I could have a controller designed specifically for these needs too...

 

Oh - I also have other controllers too, including a Komplete Kontrol keyboard. Komplete Kontrol is completely non-workable for me (ie, terrible in almost every regard), but it might be ok if you're primarily using NI and other compatible products (but it won't work for any of the Logic stuff, for example). I do use it for transport, but don't use it for plugin control.

[Djchad72]

Hi @Des99!

 

I appreciate your passion. I am too in a way & I have been through controllers like a bag of potato chips at a Super Bowl party. I agree this does seem like a relatively easy domain to conquer for an innovative designer.

 

For your solution, are you following a Logic Pro scripting standard or following the MCU scripting standard and then producing custom/edited plists for each plug in? How would this work with Kontakt Libraries? Do you universal map to Kontakt or per Library per NKI? How do you then port those form one computer to another? (i.e. copy from your computer to install onto your new computer?).

 

When you say "little Novation thingie?" what Novation tool are you using?

 

I have worked in IT for a few decades but its been a long time since I scripted anything (like in Unix). I am not opposed to doing some file editing as long as its family simple to learn.

 

Have you tried the Nektar P6 solution? Supposedly for Logic Pro X its one of the best because it has built custom scripts for many popular plugins.

 

For me I have a wide range of plug ins & libraries. Omnisphere, Trillian, Avenger, Zebra, Diva, as well as many libraries from East West / Play and Kontakt such as Komplete, SoundIron, AudioImperia, etc... Which is all NKI compatible. So most would be mapped, but as you mention... can be pages of disjointed mappings. As you suggest, it would be great for their to be some consistency that both honors each solution's "secret sauce" as well as predictable placement of controls.

[Dewdman42]

I don't think this is an easy area to solve at all, or they would have done it a long time ago. And some of the third party solutions out there are sufficiently complicated to demonstrate just how difficult the problem is to solve. I wish someone would though!

 

I will very much like to hear specifics about what you come up with. Every time I have looked into this it quickly became very complicated to easily map plugins to controls in a reusable way...so basically I just don't bother anymore. Its not that hard to just hit midi learn and use smart controls in LogicPro on an adhoc basis.

 

Most of the stuff you have mentioned like KK, VIP, Novation stuff, etc.. I am not truly expert at any of them, but they are all kind of complicated, to the point that the effort required usually exceeds the reward IMHO. The OCD part of me still wants to solve stuff like that, but I just haven't found it to be time well spent thus far.

 

There are just too many variables, too many ways that all the plugins are different, all the controllers are different, etc.

 

its one thing to use MCU for controlling the transport and mixer in LogicPro, there are numerous built in and ready to go solutions for that...but the plugin mapping challenge is very complicated, so let us know what you figure out...but me personally I just have found it more useful to hit midi learn on the controls I need to control from the plugin window and use smart controls, or not...

[des99]

For your solution, are you following a Logic Pro scripting standard or following the MCU scripting standard and then producing custom/edited plists for each plug in?

 

It's not scripting. What I do is pretend my controller is an MCU or C4 (so everything that is available to those controllers is potentially available to me and you get the general behaviour set up for you), and then I modify the controller assignments that are installed by default when you add an MCU/C4, so the buttons of my controller behave how I'd like.

 

How would this work with Kontakt Libraries? Do you universal map to Kontakt or per Library per NKI? How do you then port those form one computer to another? (i.e. copy from your computer to install onto your new computer?).

 

When the MCU controls plugins, in general it's controlling the automatable parameters that the plugin exposes to the host. But it's simple enough for me to add another mode I can enter that would just send regular MIDI commands I could manually map should that be necessary (I haven't needed to bother with this so far).. I can't remember offhand how automatable parameters per library in Kontakt work, as I haven't needed to handle that so far, but I can have a look and post back...

 

The only things you'd need to port between computers are your control surface preferences, and any CSparameterorder.plist files in your plugin preset directories (which you'd probably do anyway, as if you have a multiple computer setup, you'd probably want all your plugin presets copied anyway). It's those plists that let you modify the order of parameters that the MCU will control in the plugin edit modes.

 

When you say "little Novation thingie?" what Novation tool are you using?

 

https://novationmusic.com/en/launch/launch-control-xl

 

The actually controller doesn't really matter too much, as long as you have a layout and enough controls to do what you want. In this case, it's a small footprint portable unit that lets me access 8x4 pages of controls which works out generally fine for synths and most plugins, and is way better than just 8 controls, which isn't enough to do anything really without paging. And it let's me easily switch between mixer and my custom stuff on the fly, so it's worked out great for me.

 

(Yes, if I could custom-design some hardware, there are additional things I'd like - parameter displays & screens for one, and of course this isn't full size touch-sensitive faders like the MCU etc but I've found I don't really miss these that much - and if I do, I can always break out the MCUs...). I just like the fact it's right there to the left of my MBP within easy reach, and doesn't dominate the work surface.

 

Have you tried the Nektar P6 solution? Supposedly for Logic Pro X its one of the best because it has built custom scripts for many popular plugins.

 

I haven't, though plenty of people here have if you search around for feedback. I've seen some frustrations with them if I recall, but I don't know how they work intimately. Same with other things like the Avid ones. When it comes to plugin control, as far as I can remember they all more or less work about the same - giving you pages of 8 parameters at a time.

 

For me I have a wide range of plug ins & libraries. Omnisphere, Trillian, Avenger, Zebra, Diva, as well as many libraries from East West / Play and Kontakt such as Komplete, SoundIron, AudioImperia, etc... Which is all NKI compatible. So most would be mapped, but as you mention... can be pages of disjointed mappings. As you suggest, it would be great for their to be some consistency that both honors each solution's "secret sauce" as well as predictable placement of controls.

 

Komplete Kontrol is a garbage fire for me. Firstly, it only loads Mac VST plugins (not AU), and it's very problematic with codesigned plugins which cause crashes - there's so many downsides (I could go on about this for a while!) that it's almost completely unusable here - I tied several times to like it... There are some things which are nice about it, but the downsides vastly outweigh any gains for me. I want my DAW to be my central organising environment, I don't want to hide plugins inside other wrappers, and I want presets all available in Logic, and I want a consistent environment for *everything*, not one solution for a subset of plugins that won't work for others etc. it's just a system design that doesn't work for me...

Edited September 20, 2020 by des99

[des99]

Its not that hard to just hit midi learn and use smart controls in LogicPro on an adhoc basis.

 

Ugh, this is terrible imo. If I want to finesse the delay and feedback controls on a delay plugin while doing music, the *last* thing I want to do is stop and start setting up manual mappings, plus ones that only work for that plugin on that insert slot on that channel - pick another track, and you have to set up new mappings... you descend into mapping hell quickly. Seriously, I don't know how anyone tolerates manual mapping, apart from the odd one-off thing you want to occasionally control (which somewhat limits the usefullness of hardware controls). And Logic has a good tool for this anyway (Automation Quick Accesss). Imagine if everytime you wanted to turn left in your car, you had to stop the car, then manually wire up the steering wheel to the correct system first...

 

Most of the stuff you have mentioned like KK, VIP, Novation stuff, etc.. I am not truly expert at any of them, but they are all kind of complicated, to the point that the effort required usually exceeds the reward IMHO.

 

That's why I love my system. It's consistent, works on any track, insert slot, works for multiple instances of the same plugin one one track, and it's seamless. No mapping involved. If you get a new synth plugin, it's a simple quick reordering of the CSparameterorder list one time (because I want a consistent layout), and then there's nothing else to be done.

 

its one thing to use MCU for controlling the transport and mixer in LogicPro, there are numerous built in and ready to go solutions for that...but the plugin mapping challenge is very complicated

 

Because, like I say, no manufacturer is properly developing products to solve that problem (I've had *many* threads of this issue here and on other forums over the years, and I won't get into that here more than I have already. I'm convinced that compelling products could be made in this space.).

 

My solution makes plugin control almost perfect for my needs, and *way* better than other solutions I've seen. In fact, for me, it's been the *only* workable solution for plugin control for me. There's basically no disadvantages, really. Plus it's extendable, and I have other ideas to implement too...

[Djchad72]

@Des99 - can you correct the steps below to somewhat replicate your approach?

 

1 - You plug in our Novation LaunchControl Pro to your Mac.

2 - In the Logic Pro X Control Surface Setup you add the unit as MCU device.

3 - You edit the CSparameterorder.plist file for each PlugIn installed/you install in the future.

4 - You look at the CC for each control in your LaunchControl Pro and then adjust the .plist file accordingly.

5 - Optional: Backup both unedited .plist and the newly edited .plist.

 

Does every plugin have a CSparameterorder.plist file? I could only find the file in the Logic Pro X Native plug ins. Do you create a plist file for each plug in if they don't have it? If so, how/where do you put that file for it to work?

[des99]

Regarding Kontakt - it kinda depends on the Kontakt library how it handles automation parameters.

 

If they are defined in the library, then the library assigns it's controls to the first available automation parameters, so they'll work (in my setup) for the first 32 parameters as expected. Most of Kontakt's own library content and add-on libraries have these defined, from what I can see. I just with Analog Dreams, and they were already setup and just worked. For these libraries, I wouldn't need to conform them to any particular order, I'd just use the controls as is. For others, I might want do, and can do so if necessary.

 

For the libraries that don't automatically set this up, in the Automation panel you can simply drag each automation control to a particular Kontakt control, and then that parameter will be controlled by that knob (you can save these back to the library if you want them to persist).

Edited September 20, 2020 by des99

[des99]

@Des99 - can you correct the steps below to somewhat replicate your approach?

 

I've gone into this in more detail in other threads. It's not trivial to setup, and requires significant understanding of controller assignments and how the MCU is architected.

 

1 - You plug in our Novation LaunchControl Pro to your Mac.

2 - In the Logic Pro X Control Surface Setup you add the unit as MCU device.

3 - You edit the CSparameterorder.plist file for each PlugIn installed/you install in the future.

4 - You look at the CC for each control in your LaunchControl Pro and then adjust the .plist file accordingly.

5 - Optional: Backup both unedited .plist and the newly edited .plist.

 

2 - I have it as two devices, one as a HUI device (similar to MCU), and one as a C4 (for technical reasons). HUI handles mixer mode, and the C4 is my custom setup for plugin control. I'm using this because using HUI mode works well and saves me the effort of implementing the mixer stuff, but I could just as easily do that too. As it is, when I press "Factory" on the Novation, it's in HUI mode and controls the mixer, and when I press User, it's now acting as the C4 and is my custom plugin controlling stuff, and you can seamlessly toggle between the two. But it's not as simple as adding the controller as a C4 and expecting it to work like you want - it takes quite a bit of work to implement the desired behaviour (it's beyond the scope of telling someone on a forum how to replicate it).

 

2.5 - My controller assignments are *significantly* customised to get the behaviour I want. For example, the lower row of buttons controls which insert slot I'm targetting for control, and holding down another button and pressing those same buttons will toggle those inserts on and off. I have a bunch of stuff set up like this.

 

Edit: This was the thread where I went into more detail about how I implemented this, if you're interested (but it's nerdy reading):

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=138133&hilit=MCU

 

4 I don’t know what you mean here. Controls 1-32 will control parameters 1-32 in the CS parameter order file for a given plugin, that’s it. I just move which parameters are in which position in the CSparameterorder file according to which knob I want to control them.

 

Does every plugin have a CSparameterorder.plist file? I could only find the file in the Logic Pro X Native plug ins. Do you create a plist file for each plug in if they don't have it? If so, how/where do you put that file for it to work?

 

When you click "Save as default" for a plugin preset, Logic will write a CSparameterorder file for that plugin you then edit. It doesn't create them for all your plugins by default as it's a power user feature that would only confuse regular people...

[Dewdman42]

love to see more details about these systems you guys devise.

[Dewdman42]

and on the same topic, has anyone done anything with touch pad that will basically accomplish this automating kind of setup but with a visual display where you can see on the touchpad which control maps to which plugin parameter, etc..??

 

Its always possible to build up Lemur interfaces by hand...but I wonder if anything exists that maybe crosses the bridge between using the MCU exposed parameters..and automatically present them on an iPad for controlling it?

[Djchad72]

Has anyone seen this? Only available for pre order. Not sure of price. I will contact to find out.

 

It’s called MPMidi. It’s essentially a large screen with encoders all around the edges.

https://www.musictech.net/news/mp-midi-controller/

[des99]

Has anyone seen this?

 

In the past year or two, there have been a few smaller companies coming out with various plugin control products, or announcing development of them, and I've been following along the various threads, and even helping a few developers out with some opinions and feedback etc.

 

Interestingly, none of the them are using approaches, or building the product/s I'd personally like to see, they are all trying to solve the problem in different ways - not so good for me, but it's good that people are looking at the problem and trying to find ways to solve it.

 

I have a fairly strong idea of my needs (and some rough ideas of solutions to various problems that a controller product would need implemented), but in conversations with other people over the years, there are many workflows and ideas of what people want - for example, there are many people that want a controller that accesses *every* parameter of a plugin. This doesn't make much sense to me, because complex plugins can have thousands, or even tens of thousands of parameters. If you're going to have a knob box that can control any plugin parameter, you're going to end up with some small amount of knobs, a screen, and a system of paging around parameters, which straight away is killing the idea of a hardware controller to aid the workflow - you're going to spend longer trying to reach a parameter than actually controlling it.

[des99]

and on the same topic, has anyone done anything with touch pad that will basically accomplish this automating kind of setup but with a visual display where you can see on the touchpad which control maps to which plugin parameter, etc..??

 

Its always possible to build up Lemur interfaces by hand...but I wonder if anything exists that maybe crosses the bridge between using the MCU exposed parameters..and automatically present them on an iPad for controlling it?

 

Not on an iPad, but I have done a bunch of Mac development with the MCU protocols, and I've got some other related projects I'd like to develop.

 

The iPad already has Logic Remote, which is pretty good and comprehensive as far as Logic goes.